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lissa70
Guest
How does one come to understand 1 Tim 2:12 in today’s society? Is this simply a reference to the Tradition that women cannot be priests or does it mean more than that?
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fermat
Guest
I’m not sure if this really address the thread, but there are a multitude of reasons why the priesthood is reserved for men. I suggest you read ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS. This is an Apostolic Letter by Pope John Paul II that outlines the reason why the Church does not have the authority to ordain female priests.
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garysibio
Guest
It is not a tradition that women cannot be ordained; it is a dogma. Traditions, such as priestly celibacy, can be changed. Dogmas cannot.
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NotWorthy
Guest
I find it odd that Paul says, “I do not permit…”. It almost sounds like Paul is speaking only for himself, and not for the Church as he does elsewhere. That is simply my opinion, however.
However, this verse has nothing to do with women in the priesthood. Jesus only ordained men, even though there were women among his disciples, not the least of which were Mary, His mother, and Mary Magdalene. Furthermore, the priest is acting “In Persona Christi” (in the person of Christ). Jesus, as the bridegroom, should act through someone who could be a bridegroom… something a woman can’t be…except, of course, in Conneticut!
However, this verse has nothing to do with women in the priesthood. Jesus only ordained men, even though there were women among his disciples, not the least of which were Mary, His mother, and Mary Magdalene. Furthermore, the priest is acting “In Persona Christi” (in the person of Christ). Jesus, as the bridegroom, should act through someone who could be a bridegroom… something a woman can’t be…except, of course, in Conneticut!
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diggerdomer
Guest
It probably means less than that at the time.
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mfj
Guest
This commentary came from
haydock1859.tripod.com/id228.html
An online bible commentary
Ver. 12. St. Paul only means in public. See note on ver. 11. of the next chapter. It would appear from this regulation of the apostle, as well as from the writings of the earliest fathers, that the practice and condemnation of women interfering at all in spiritual affairs, in not new. Tertullian says: We do not permit a woman to teach, to baptize, or to arrogate to herself any part of the duty which belongs to man. (De Veland. Virg. cap. 9.) — The woman has tried once to teach, when she persuaded Adam to eat the forbidden fruit, and has wofully failed. Let her now be content to remain in silence, and subjection to man; (St. Chrysostom on this place) as appears also from the order of the creation. See ver. 13. Seduction began with Eve, a subject of profound humiliation for women; but this ought not to deprive them of confidence in God’s mercy, nor take from them the hope of salvation. (Bible de Vence)
–end–
It seems as though Paul is up against the curse of Eve.
from the same site a cut from Genisis chapter 3
16 To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee.
the comentary;
Ver. 16. And thy conceptions. Septuagint:“thy groaning.” The multifarious sorrows of childbearing, must remind all mothers (the blessed Virgin alone excepted) of what they have incurred by original sin. If that had not taken place, they would have conceived with out concupiscence, and brought forth without sorrow. (St. Augustine, City of God xiv. 26.)— Conceptions are multiplied on account of the many untimely deaths, in our fallen state. Power, which will sometimes be exercised with rigor. (Haydock) — Moses here shews the original and natural subjection of wives to their husbands, in opposition to the Egyptians, who, to honour Isis, gave women the superiority by the marriage contract. (Diod. i. 2.) (Calmet)
There are many who want to curb this teaching or at least tone it down. As is done with miracles, creation story, etc… Some things are harder to swallow than others. And it doesn’t matter in what age it is taught.
haydock1859.tripod.com/id228.html
An online bible commentary
Ver. 12. St. Paul only means in public. See note on ver. 11. of the next chapter. It would appear from this regulation of the apostle, as well as from the writings of the earliest fathers, that the practice and condemnation of women interfering at all in spiritual affairs, in not new. Tertullian says: We do not permit a woman to teach, to baptize, or to arrogate to herself any part of the duty which belongs to man. (De Veland. Virg. cap. 9.) — The woman has tried once to teach, when she persuaded Adam to eat the forbidden fruit, and has wofully failed. Let her now be content to remain in silence, and subjection to man; (St. Chrysostom on this place) as appears also from the order of the creation. See ver. 13. Seduction began with Eve, a subject of profound humiliation for women; but this ought not to deprive them of confidence in God’s mercy, nor take from them the hope of salvation. (Bible de Vence)
–end–
It seems as though Paul is up against the curse of Eve.
from the same site a cut from Genisis chapter 3
16 To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee.
the comentary;
Ver. 16. And thy conceptions. Septuagint:“thy groaning.” The multifarious sorrows of childbearing, must remind all mothers (the blessed Virgin alone excepted) of what they have incurred by original sin. If that had not taken place, they would have conceived with out concupiscence, and brought forth without sorrow. (St. Augustine, City of God xiv. 26.)— Conceptions are multiplied on account of the many untimely deaths, in our fallen state. Power, which will sometimes be exercised with rigor. (Haydock) — Moses here shews the original and natural subjection of wives to their husbands, in opposition to the Egyptians, who, to honour Isis, gave women the superiority by the marriage contract. (Diod. i. 2.) (Calmet)
There are many who want to curb this teaching or at least tone it down. As is done with miracles, creation story, etc… Some things are harder to swallow than others. And it doesn’t matter in what age it is taught.
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Cashue
Guest
I think it means that women should not be allowed to teach in the church. They can teach non believer though and they can teach their children. This shows that scripturally there must never be female priest or females teaching the congregation from the pulpit.
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spockrates
Guest
I agree, and think NotWorthy’s statement is worthy of consideration!
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
(1 Timothy 2:11-15)
It might be that at the time St. Paul wrote this the early Church had yet to make a decision about the subject of ordaining women. The Apostle might have been giving his own opinion and explaining why he was on the side of those who did not believe women should become priests.
That being said, one can learn a lot from a woman. After all, Mother Teressa said this, which I will never forget:
Once you see truth, you can’t unsee it!
So simple; yet so profound! It’s a truth I cannot unsee, and one that helped me return to Catholicism.
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diggerdomer
Guest
Thank goodness the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that.
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E_Thrower_II
Guest
The qualifications for a priest are outlined in 1 Timothy 3:1-7.
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Mintaka
Guest
It’s clear that St. Paul meant “in public, like a bishop”, because he talks to Timothy about holding onto the Christian faith and customs Timothy learned from Timothy’s mother and grandmother. (And of course there are tons of Jewish Biblical passages about learning from your mother, a whole section of Proverbs, the Judge Deborah, etc.)
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jcrichton
Guest
…many think that as time changes Scriptures should change to embrace social values… somehow, Jesus, was forced to select twelve male disciples since He did not want to make waves…
In most cultures the famale spouse is the one that not only nourishes the family but is also the children’s first tutor. I doubt that St. Paul’s contemporary culture was any different; hence, females did teach male children.
The difference must be, today as it was then, in the form of worship: Yahweh God chose the male of the species as both His servant and His delegate; interstingly enough, we find that the pagan cutlures around the Hebrews employed priestesses as well as priests in their idol-worship–this could also be a reason why Yahweh established His male-priesthood; finally, Jesus, while He was aided by women, slected 12 male disciples for His ministry–a custom originated with Moses and Aaron and continued by the Apostles and by the Church founded by Christ and guided by the Holy Spirit.
Maran atha!
Angel
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