Understanding Atheism?

[TheAtheist]

There’s been a lot that’s been going around about what an atheist is, who we are, what we feel, etc. However, its a little lopsided so i’m going try to push away some cobwebs and misconceptions.

1.) We’re all individuals…well some of us.

At the very heart of it, we’re just a bunch of people who disbelieve in the existence of a Deity. Much like the label “theist” would denote someone who believes in a Deity.

Now the problem is when people start using Atheist in the manner people start using the term Christian.

For instance, i can say that all of you a Christians and i would be correct. However, i could say 7th Day Adventists are Christians too and I would be correct.

I would definitely not be correct in equating both of your denominations!

2.) There are Nuances, please be aware of them!

So yes, there are Atheists who believe in Ghosts, Atheists who are Pagans (don’t ask me explain that one, i still don’t get it), and then there are the caricatures you fear the most.

A.) The “New Atheist” is “new” in the sense of being rather highly polemical and assertive. They’ve always been around but ever since 9/11 and the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism they are out in full force. Much of this is tied to the assault on evolutionary theory as well.

They generally tend to be, by my own estimation, young and angry. The vast majority of them are the type willing to pop up on the internet and shut down their opponents in the name of Reason.

And following Richard Dawkin’s “advice” in the God Delusion, they have a tendency of branding all other types of Atheists who are not committed 120% to the cause of wiping out religion as fence sitters or cowards.

They perceive atheism as some sort of “movement.” They also glorify themselves as being chosen somehow to usher mankind into an age of Reason, dare I say Utopia.

[Hmm… Chosen… does that sound familiar to anyone? ]

B.) The “Apathist/Irrelevantist” - " I don’t care."

I would actually contend that the vast majority of atheists fall into this category. These are the people who just really want to live their lives without getting into any kind of debate about religion.

Mind you, they might even see a positive aspect to religion in terms of a cultural aspect.

Case in point: Japan. One of the most atheistic countries on the planet, however they are not frothing at the mouth for the destruction of the religion. In fact, they have taken great pains in preserving many of their Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples. They might go to them and do some rituals, but the vast majority of them (at least in the case of Shinto) don’t believe that the rituals will do anything per see. Its just nice and cultural, puts them back in touch with their ancestors, etc.

Heck, many of them visit Catholic Churches around Christmas. Why? Because it seems right to do that.

[Granted, this is exceptional. Asian atheists tend not to be “ferocious” for a number of reasons - mostly cultural.]

C.) Postmodern Pessimists and Seekers of Truth

If “New Atheism” is strongly affected by the Anglo-American style of thought, the Postmodernist type is quite Continental.

These are the types of people who tend be rather historically aware. They don’t have a blind faith in Enlightenment values that inform the ethical rubric of the “New Atheists.” Of course, because they are not willing to “march along” they are automatically branded as “Pessimists.”

Many of them are “weak atheists” which equates to a kind of agnosticism (or vice versa).

To them, you guys aren’t a threat, or delusional/suffering from a “mind virus”/etc. You are human…just like them.

Mind you, they are not expecting Christ to Come Again…but they also think that “Communist Utopia,” “World Theocracy,” and “Atheist Technocracy” have just about the same probability, ie: 0.

Like the Apathist, the world doesn’t fall into simple camps where the uniformity of belief somehow takes precedence over the actions and thoughts of the individual.

IE: Belief in God is not a sign of lack of intelligence anymore than the Disbelief in God is a sign of a lack of morals.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Dude, I definitely respect and understand Atheists!

But explain all you want; general Christians or believer of almost any faith will continue to misunderstand… and I know this from the inside.

There’s a thread somewhere around here about LaVeyan Satanism… There have been countless replies about it *not *being about the Christian Devil, yet each time, too many of them failed to grasp that!

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

 

[TheAtheist]

3.) Some of us are QUITE Happy…others Less So.

So the topic of happiness always seems to pop up. Moreso these days than the accusations that we lack a moral code. I believe it goes something like - “We’re all unhappy.” or “This is adolscent rage.”

Granted, there’s a lot of that…especially on the internet.

But to say that we’re all perennially unhappy? That life has no meaning or purpose?

If that is the case why haven’t we all committed suicide?

The Secret as to why that hasn’t occurred is simple: Other things motivate our lives.

I would contend that the vast majority of atheists don’t often speak about religion or “upholding atheism.” They are far more concerned about putting food on the table, getting that salary bonus, working in their lab, writing that piece of poetry, dating that fetching and attractive individual. They have individual causes or purposes like preventing a rent increase or saving the spotted owl.

They live life, like you do.

Its only the ones who have made Atheism their cause that are well…disinteresting. They probably end up talking about God more than you folks - primarily in negative terms. Dare i say, they are “God-Obsessed.”

 

[TheAtheist]

But explain all you want; general Christians or believer of almost any faith will continue to misunderstand… and I know this from the inside.

Oh, well you know Blade, i suppose plotting with the Bavarian Illuminati, the Knights Templar, and the Elders of Zion to bring down Christendom kind of nets you that reputation.

:sigh: Caveat: Just in case someone misinterprets - I’m being facetious.]

There’s a thread somewhere around here about LaVeyan Satanism… There have been countless replies about it *not *being about the Christian Devil, yet each time, too many of them failed to grasp that!

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

They LaVeyans are…weird, at least to me. They have obviously absconded with the idea of the Christian Devil, and turned him into a symbol of rebellion. Echoes of Milton i wonder…

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

But to say that we’re all perennially unhappy? That life has no meaning or purpose?

If that is the case why haven’t we all committed suicide?

The Secret as to why that hasn’t occurred is simple: Other things motivate our lives.

Statistically speaking, Protestants are #1 on the list of “most suicidal”; Catholics are 2nd; Muslims are 3rd. Go figure.

 

[TheAtheist]

Statistically speaking, Protestants are #1 on the list of “most suicidal”; Catholics are 2nd; Muslims are 3rd. Go figure.

Eh, in truth i’m even disinclined to believe that. I mean, if the majority population of a country are Protestants, than by sheer mass numbers i’d expect that to be the case.

I’m sure if we had a theoretical country full of atheists where Protestants were in the minority position, position 1 would probably be filled up by atheists.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

Eh, in truth i’m even disinclined to believe that. I mean, if the majority population of a country are Protestants, than by sheer mass numbers i’d expect that to be the case.

I’m sure if we had a theoretical country full of atheists where Protestants were in the minority position, position 1 would probably be filled up by atheists.

I don’t think so. It seems that religions who continually label suicide as “sinful” and actively discourage such an action, hold more suicidal people than those faiths who do not stress suicide that much, such as Buddhism.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

most of your OP was interesting, there are classes, i dont really agree with your categorizations from the technical standpoint but they are close enough.

i like to divide them into the weak and strong atheist camps, and consider the rest as people who read or heard something they adopted, but cant really support, those kind drop in here shoot a few posts, get crushed and then never seem to return.

there are some committed atheists, the real rationalists are quickly overcome because there is no real motive to stay and fight. though this group, in my experience provides the most converts.

then you have the committed to being right crowd, i think their motivation tends to be contrarian in nature, they like the thrill of battle.

as to Japan being a society of atheists i must disagree, by going to church for Christmas, and following various shinto, and buddhist traditions they are practicing some forms of spirituality, just not religion as we view it, but that does mean they are not literal atheists.

but no matter the style of atheism, if they deny a Creator then they are being illogical. in the end all the fancy deals aside 0+0=0
nothing comes from nothing. even Dr. Flew came around

as to the ardent rationalists defending evolution , you must understand that the attack on evolution is mostly a protestant phenomenon, and it make us all look bad.

as a materialist, i dont care for scientific orthodoxy that cannot be questioned, history is littered with the bodies of unquestionable theories. let me just say the word ‘phlogiston’ as an example.

by the same token, the most obvious proof of G-d is in our very existence. very hard to deny, which is why i think ‘negative or weak atheism’ is so popular, one can avoid actually explaining an alternative to Creation, with out having to put forth the intellectual effort to reason out those alternatives.

i can respect a strong atheist, the others seem to be weak or cowardly to me as well

though strong atheism has the same problem with our existence as all other forms. at least they hav e the courage of their convictions in the face of overwhelming odds, that i can respect, even if i dont agree

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I don’t think so. It seems that religions who continually label suicide as “sinful” and actively discourage such an action, hold more suicidal people than those faiths who do not stress suicide that much, such as Buddhism.

you can divide those numbers over any categories of people, by race, by profession, by location, by wealth, etc. we need more evidence to assign a causal relationship. between faith and suicide. frankly buddhists tend to come from poor nations, and the rate of suicide corelates highly with wealth, last time i saw the numbers, might have been 18-19 years ago though, in my first trip through college. so they might have changed since

 

[TheAtheist]

then you have the committed to being right crowd, i think their motivation tends to be contrarian in nature, they like the thrill of battle.

Yeah, i tend to dislike the above the most. “Hey i’m a little kid on the internet, let me go crash someone else’s party.”

Thrill of Battle = Nothing Worthwhile Done.

as to Japan being a society of atheists i must disagree, by going to church for Christmas, and following various shinto, and buddhist traditions they are practicing some forms of spirituality, just not religion as we view it, but that does mean they are not literal atheists.

But does “blanket spirituality” equate necessarily to a belief in divinity? I mean i ask these people when i’m Tokyo or Osaka if by ringing that bell, or leaving that placard they believe an entity or a higher power will answer their call - they flatly tell me no. It makes them feel better.

Whereas if i ask one of you guys if praying to Padre Pio allows one to contact an actual being - you sure as hell give me the thumbs up!

as to the ardent rationalists defending evolution , you must understand that the attack on evolution is mostly a protestant phenomenon, and it make us all look bad.

quite aware of that - There exists a powerful double standard against Catholics. You folks tend to take most of the brunt from secular critics because there’s a kind of perception you institution leads all Christians or some such.

On the other hand i know a number of Protestants who stated your previous pope was an Anti-Christ and your the servant of the Whore of Babylon. Puts you in the crossfire doesn’t it.

i can respect a strong atheist, the others seem to be weak or cowardly to me as well

though strong atheism has the same problem with our existence as all other forms.

Something told me that you would.

As for “problem with your existence,” i would like to contest that. But i suppose that determines on what you mean by problem.

The atheists i know…just don’t care. Not just about religion, but even political causes or philosophy. So long as you don’t stand in their way of material aggrandizement/personal ambitions/etc, your ok.

Anything that should happen to do as such, and they’ll scream that their rights have been violated.

As for my own personal circle - heck, one of my friends is married to a Catholic. Nor has anyone have much of an interest to “convert” a person to atheism.

We’re not dreaming of a world without you.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Yeah, i tend to dislike the above the most. “Hey i’m a little kid on the internet, let me go crash someone else’s party.”

Thrill of Battle = Nothing Worthwhile Done.

But does “blanket spirituality” equate necessarily to a belief in divinity? I mean i ask these people when i’m Tokyo or Osaka if by ringing that bell, or leaving that placard they believe an entity or a higher power will answer their call - they flatly tell me no. It makes them feel better.

Whereas if i ask one of you guys if praying to Padre Pio allows one to contact an actual being - you sure as hell give me the thumbs up!

thats the difference i am talking about, in my opinion a desire to be spiritual is evidence of a desire to have a relationship with the divine, there is a large cultural disconnect, but considering nature and ancestor worship traditions in east asia, i don’t think there is that large of a philosophical difference in traditions tradition. on top of that, i have noticed among my asian friends, a tendency to say what would be the least controversial thing, its cultural from what i can tell. further there are huge amounts of growth occuring in the greater Christain community in east asia. so i think we may not really be all that far apart, but this is all opinion, i have not traveled there.

quite aware of that - There exists a powerful double standard against Catholics. You folks tend to take most of the brunt from secular critics because there’s a kind of perception you institution leads all Christians or some such.

On the other hand i know a number of Protestants who stated your previous pope was an Anti-Christ and your the servant of the Whore of Babylon. Puts you in the crossfire doesn’t it.

yes but there have been many ‘heresies’ i dont know a better word for it. like arianism that both consumed the church and then died. in the time horizon of the church, i expect them to be no more of a blip in the long run, that said i was raised a number of years as a protestant and i understand them, but it took not a lot of research to see the massive flaws in their foundations when i became interested enough to look.

Something told me that you would.

As for “problem with your existence,” i would like to contest that. But i suppose that determines on what you mean by problem.

we exist, therefore a creator exists, to put it most simply.

The atheists i know…just don’t care. Not just about religion, but even political causes or philosophy. So long as you don’t stand in their way of material aggrandizement/personal ambitions/etc, your ok.

Anything that should happen to do as such, and they’ll scream that their rights have been violated.

maybe ‘hedonist’ is a better term for those people. its not about a lack of G-d for them, i think is more about just fulfilling their own desires

As for my own personal circle - heck, one of my friends is married to a Catholic. Nor has anyone have much of an interest to “convert” a person to atheism.

We’re not dreaming of a world without you.

yeah im always wondering about some atheists, who fight a little too hard, if i guy hangs out at the pool all day, you got to think he might be interested in taking a swim.

 

[ishii]

The Atheist wrote:

Case in point: Japan. One of the most atheistic countries on the planet, however they are not frothing at the mouth for the destruction of the religion. In fact, they have taken great pains in preserving many of their Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples. They might go to them and do some rituals, but the vast majority of them (at least in the case of Shinto) don’t believe that the rituals will do anything per see. Its just nice and cultural, puts them back in touch with their ancestors, etc.

I would be interested in why you think Japan is one of the most atheistic countries on the planet. I realize this is anecdotal, but in my experiences there (over seven years) I found most Japanese that I met (and I met quite a few) to definitely believe in some kind of God (kami-sama) even if their belief in God didn’t translate into the kind of actions one associates with Christians, such as regular attendance at church, etc. What evidence you have to back up your claim that “the vast majority of Japanese don’t believe the rituals will do anything.” ?

Ishii

 

[yellowbicycle]

I’ve got lots of love for my atheists brothers and sisters.
I was one.
I was president of the club!
And yes, most were of the ‘I really don’t care’ type. Some were all like ‘My rights as an atheist are being trampled!’ and they were definitely of the more militant variety.
Do you have any idea how incredibly difficult it is to organize a bunch of people who’s only common trait is not caring? I love them, I really do. But man alive, they were flakes.
Many were atheists because they couldn’t understand how a caring and loving God could allow his creatures to suffer. (That’s the one that I was hung up on myself). Some were because they wanted to be different from their parents, who were of some faith or another. Some were because they were, I’ll be frank here, too lazy to think about the questions. Many were atheists because they couldn’t reconcile the natural world and their rational thoughts with their spiritual side. Some couldn’t reconcile how bad people could still call themselves Christians. There were all sorts of reasons.

 

[Sarpedon]

Do you think most atheists honestly want God to exist but cannot convince themselves, or do they prefer atheism as truth? I know almost all of them will say they want God to exist but I am wondering if you have a perspective from the inside.

 

[TheAtheist]

Eek, pressed for time, will handle replies to others soon, but just wanted to knock this one out of the way.

Do you think most atheists honestly want God to exist but cannot convince themselves, or do they prefer atheism as truth? I know almost all of them will say they want God to exist but I am wondering if you have a perspective from the inside.

It depends, is God like Santa or Osama Bin Laden?

A being that can give people what they want - who wouldn’t like that?

A being that persecutes you for who you are - who would want that?

The desirability of a God would be dependent upon how that God treats said person in terms of that person’s choices.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Eek, pressed for time, will handle replies to others soon, but just wanted to knock this one out of the way.

It depends, is God like Santa or Osama Bin Laden?

A being that can give people what they want - who wouldn’t like that?

A being that persecutes you for who you are - who would want that?

The desirability of a God would be dependent upon how that God treats said person in terms of that person’s choices.

bingo! that hits the nail on the head, most are not motivated by actual rationalism, but rather on the desire for freedom from judgment, but most try to use rationalism as their excuse. i would have more respect for an atheist that simply said i want to do X and your faith doesnt allow it. and thats why i am an atheist, but they know thats not a logical reason to be an atheist so they approach the problem from the other side.

that also explains my pet theory that if any appropriate study was done we might find a correlation between atheism and sexual deviancy. of course no such study would be politically correct, but it would be interesting.

dont be offended its just a theory, my pet one at that.

 

[Dameedna]

Do you think most atheists honestly want God to exist but cannot convince themselves, or do they prefer atheism as truth? I know almost all of them will say they want God to exist but I am wondering if you have a perspective from the inside.

I think it depends on the athiest, but it is also a matter of wether they are honest with themsevles about this one issue.

I think that most would prefer there to be a God, and the only really twisted rationalizations I see, is the athiest trying to convince themselves they wouldn’t prefer it.

I think it is very hard, for some to admit they would prefer to believe. That’s actually a painful realization, in light of the fact you simply cannot believe. You can’t convince yourself of something that isn’t true regardless of what you want…so better just to convince yourself you dont’ WANT it to be true.

But, they put truth above that desire and hence question everything. Athiests usually don’t just question the existance of a God, they often question everything, from their beliefs in general in a society(IS democracy the best choice? IS capitalism the best choice? SHOULD we be living in a nuclear family unit or is that not actually good for us).

And as Atiesta said, often they simply don’t care. IE, they don’t care about religion because it is simply meaningless to them. Why waste your time on something that doesn’t exist?

I wouldn’t go so far as to saying that Athiests don’t 'care" about anyone, but perhaps my experiences are different than others. Most that I’ve met have been involved in social causes, along with supporting their own personal ambitions.

 

[vee8]

TheAtheist

Case in point: Japan. One of the most atheistic countries on the planet, however they are not frothing at the mouth for the destruction of the religion. In fact, they have taken great pains in preserving many of their Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples. They might go to them and do some rituals, but the vast majority of them (at least in the case of Shinto) don’t believe that the rituals will do anything per see. Its just nice and cultural, puts them back in touch with their ancestors, etc.

Heck, many of them visit Catholic Churches around Christmas. Why? Because it seems right to do that.

Where did you hear that many Japanese visit Catholic Churches around Christmas time?

 

[TheAtheist]

Okdokie, and now for the Eastern portion of the thread:

I would be interested in why you think Japan is one of the most atheistic countries on the planet. I realize this is anecdotal, but in my experiences there (over seven years) I found most Japanese that I met (and I met quite a few) to definitely believe in some kind of God (kami-sama) even if their belief in God didn’t translate into the kind of actions one associates with Christians, such as regular attendance at church, etc. What evidence you have to back up your claim that “the vast majority of Japanese don’t believe the rituals will do anything.” ?

Not that mine would be any different <–anecdotal as well, mostly centered around high density Urban areas such as Tokyo. If i had to break down the demographic even further, (at the time) most of the folks i had contact with ranged from late teens to mid 30s.

Most of the time, when accompanying a greeting them, i was always curious about the various visitations to Shinto shrines. Many of them would undertake certain ritual actions of cleansing and purification, but when i queried them directly about the consequences of not doing as such - they just smiled and laughed stating that there were none whatsoever.

Same situation occurred when i queried random strangers at the Meiji Shrine. I pretty much came to the same conclusion as this guy.

youtube.com/watch?v=Wh6xOZrEggo&feature=PlayList&p=9D7F5691CFA13B06&index=52

Where did you hear that many Japanese visit Catholic Churches around Christmas time?

Rather, what did i see . Amongst the people i bumped into in my two years living in Roppongi, i see 2 very distinct attitudes toward Christmas.

1.) “Sexy Valentine’s Day” - Aside from being an excuse for commercialism, amongst the younger folk there seems to have been a trend toward viewing Christmas as a romantic time…that and one of my friends working in the local “chamber of commerce” would joke about the increased booking for all the Love Hotels in the area.
2.) The “Kitch” Factor - And this is what i was referring to - again*

 

[TheAtheist]

Can’t seem to edit the previous post, so let me move forward

2.) The “Kitch Factor” aka “Let’s do something fun and cultural.”

So for the group of folks who weren’t working that day, treating Christmas like a shopping spree at Best Buy, or looking to get some “snuggle time” there seemed to be a very strong urge amongst the group do fun “cultural” things.

Mostly at Churches which had some sort event going beyond a Mass.

In my specific instance, i got roped in with a crowd of 30 people (all but one of us Non-Christians) to attend a lovely choir performance on Christmas eve at one of your churches.

Sometimes i have to wonder, was that the equivalent of a foreigner taking part in Matsuri?

---

In any event, since my assertions now must be formalized, here’s a suggestion. For those who want to pursue the topic further, the only way were going to get to the bottom of this is with hard statistics. I tried looking for some on the internet already, but i can only think of three reliable sources that won’t skew the stats.

1.) The UN
2.) Pew International/Research
3.) The Japanese Government itself.

The other problematic is how to classify Buddhism. Some of my atheist colleagues are nigh insistent that it be classified as an atheist religion, although they obviously haven’t taken a strong look at “Pure Land” Buddhism. Maybe a case can be made for Zen…and that’s still a maybe.

But the larger point, the reason i brought up the Japanese in the first place, was i trying to pick out an example of “Apathistic” Atheists - the ones who aren’t going to blame all of you folks for the end of civilization as we know it (versus say Christopher Hitchens).

I mean all these people, more or less, went through the cultural schema of doing the Shinto “coming of age” rituals and buried their family members in the Buddhist style.

But, do they really “believe?” I’d have to come out in the negative on that one. Now the older generation definitely does - and many complained to me of the dwindling number of folks who actually do bother to stop in any of the Shinto shrines besides the major touristy ones.

But does their disbelief translate into some hatred or animosity toward religious sensibilites? Again, i’d have to say no. They were far more concerned with the little worlds they inhabitated whether it be high-stakes gambling in Kabuki-cho, their investment banking jobs, latching onto an investment banker in Heartland (arguably the center of Roppongi Hills), strengthening their “gravure idol” career, or just hanging around of all places Akihabara (i still don’t understand what people see in the place).

To quote Damdeena:

And as Atiesta said, often **they simply don’t care. **IE, they don’t care about religion because it is simply meaningless to them. Why waste your time on something that doesn’t exist?

Such is the life of the Apathist. Whereas the Strong Atheist might see one as a Threat, Religion being the great destroyer of reason or some such nonesense - the Apathist sees it more like…Chinese food.

As in, “Hey, this kinda a cool and interesting. Let me go scratch the surface of it. Ok i’m done, maybe i’ll come back to it later.”

The ONLY strong opinion i ever encountered regarding religion was a severe distaste for cults. I can only guess that’s the case due to the Aum Shinrikyo incident.

All the Shinshūkyō (New Age religious sects) that popped up in Japan tend to scare the heck out of people.

In the case of Christianity in particular, while you folks and many of the older Protestant sects are a 'ok (You got Hierarchy, Order, and level of Respectability) - I always got the feeling that the Evangelicals, while not treated with horror and disdain like Aum Shinrikyo or derision like Makuya, were still kind of “on the border” of respectability.