Unequally yoked marriage & trying to remain joyful

[Saturn5]

I am impressed by your willingness to continue such soul-searching, Saturn. What does your counselor suggest? What does your priest suggest? I’m not sure you could legitimately pursue anything physical with her anyway, due to the whole invalid marriage thing. So perhaps that is your answer from above, regarding the physical stuff. According to…I’m not sure if it’s dogma or doctrine, your priest (or the co-religionists here, who are very knowledgeable) could tell you, you need to live as brother and sister anyway. So the “dying to self” here means getting used to the status quo on the physical side. And praying!

The issue of abandonment is an interesting one. I don’t think she would see you “not asking” as abandonment, nor as “leaving her behind”, so this is more for your personal comfort/need. You describe this dynamic as sort of entrenched…again, the priest/counselor are better resources, but I might suggest really backing off for a while. (“While” = several weeks, maybe more.) It’s possible that she is so very used to saying NO that it will take a while of detox before she would be open to a casual invitation. Have you tried asking her what she prefers? “Hey, I keep asking but you’re not interested. Would you prefer I step back for a while? I don’t want to pressure you to do all these date-type things if you’re not interested.” I wonder if you don’t give her any time to “miss” you. You’re always there, always available, always eager…and I suspect that even a glimmer of a positive response from her might be smothered by a hyper-enthusiastic (read “clinging to hope”) response in return? At this point, she might feel it’s just easier to say no to anything & everything, than trigger an emotional outburst (or worse, a lecture).

I guess it would be worth pondering how not putting out so many requests for “couple” time becomes “leaving her behind”? Really, this is a great point for a counselor’s (name removed by moderator)ut. I’m not sure that you’re really meeting her emotional needs, in that she doesn’t seem to enjoy talking with you even casually…so there’s nothing to “walk away from”. I suspect this is more accurately framed as you wishing she’d fulfill your emotional needs, and you’re not wanting to give up hope that your needs will be met. This is the kind of dying to self I was talking about. Rather than portraying it as a heroic effort to be “something” for her, perhaps recognize that it is your own (valid!) human need for connection that is driving you. From that point of honesty, you can better assess how to balance your own needs before moving to the family’s needs. (“In case of cabin depressurization, secure your oxygen mask first. Then assist those near you.”)

One final thought. Does she do much out of the house, generally? She also might be used to the “homebody” thing. One additional angle might be creating opportunities for her to engage out of the home…rather than invite her to a concert (since she’s likely to decline), what about just handing her the envelope with 2 tickets. “I know you love ____ (insert band name, artist, movie, whatevs). Maybe ______ (name of girlfriend) would like to go with you? I’ll stay home & wrangle the kids that night.” You’re showing that you value her interests, you’re showing positive encouragement for her to “have a life”, you’re not trying to corral her into a date? Just a thought. I think it’s going to take something different to get her to drop the entrenched indifference. And even then, it may not be successful. So…prayer is always good!

Patience…I suffer from a lack thereof! Maybe I’m looking out to far. Our kids are going to be out of the house in a few short years and so I see this freight train of emptiness bearing down on my wife. Without kids, I worry for her. I honestly try to think about her wellbeing and not my selfish needs (…ya, that’s difficult at times and I’m not always successful). But maybe that’s what she needs, she needs to be forced to refocus.

At some level this boils down for me and my trust in God. I do believe he wants me to do something, not just sit idly by and wait. Yes, these are conversations I have with my spiritual director and confessor.

And maybe that’s one of the things I miss the most. I can’t have these conversations with my wife. I’ve tried in the past, they just turn into monologues. So I’ve stopped. Yes, I understand the living as brother and sister part, I know that is necessary if we don’t have a valid marriage in the eyes of the Church. But then there is also no emotional or spiritual intimacy. So what do you have then?

Thank you for framing it that way KnitNut. More to contemplate in prayer.

 

[chevalier]

My comment on her news that she loved you, but was not “in love” with you, is that this is a normal feeling to have in marriage.

My first observation too! Can it be that the OP’s wife finds herself not knowing what to do because fuzzy feelings have worn off?

The romance wears off, the delight in each others’ company wears off, and we have to make a commitment and let the relationship mature.

Yes, and I suppose one could feel guilty for no longer feeling it, as in having offended against one’s loved one, and also misplaced as in being in a relationship where those fuzzy feelings don’t exist.

But they don’t actually need to exist any more, at least in their unaltered form. Those fuzzy feelings typically last a relatively short time (unless rekindled) and are primarily a reaction to what you experience and an impulse (a motivation) to make the decision to marry the person concerned.

But even before the wedding those fuzzy feelings, romantic feelings etc. eventually make it easy on you so that you can function normally without being constantly high on amphetamine, which is basically what you are when in love. (Dopamine and norephetamine are some sort of natural amphetamines that are released to your brain when you fall in love, along with phenethylamine, which is responsible for even crazier stuff.)

In short, she’s not betraying you by no longer feeling the butterflies. Nor is she betraying herself by being with you despite the absence of butterflies. This is because you can’t constantly be on a butterflies high, it’s normal that you aren’t high all the time, only some of the time, and that you mellow down and begin to emphasize commitment itself more.

It simply sounds to me that she didn’t make that decision at the moment that she could have, and has refused to do so since, whereas you have. I will not speculate on why she should do this.

Same. Perhaps marriage itself wasn’t a total scare, e.g. as long as butterflies were there, but when it came to making a more level-headed decision on commitment things went downhill from there. But I wouldn’t like to speculate further without some data to base it on.

I would guess that there is often an imbalance in the response of the two partners to the feeling of not being in love anymore, and the one who withholds their commitment can gain an upper hand in the relationship

And that would play a role in a relationship afflicted with control issues and perhaps even trust issues (which lead to control issues because of how gaining control is seen as a measure to ensure safety for oneself).

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I don’t know how things have gone so far, but it does seem to me that the wife is shutting off completely and being uncooperative to the extreme emotionally while still not willing to abandon her obligations to the children and perhaps society and law in a way.

But what I want to say here is that you, i.e. the OP, shouldn’t adapt by taking the blame on you where you don’t deserve it. I’m worried that you might be deluding yourself that you did some things wrong in order to justify your wife and preserve her ideal image in your eyes. You need to face the truth that she’s not ideal and may be more than a little flawed, and it may be not without her own fault.

If you keep blaming yourself compensationally, you may develop some sort of a twisted mentality where you become a scapegoat or even a battered husband — bottling it up and being in denial until you explode when the bottle overflows and you can no longer stand the injustice of your self-appointed role as the blame carrier or the person who needs to adapt (similarly to the spouse of an alcoholic or even adult child of one).

This said, I see it as a possibility that you did do something wrong and owning up, apologizing (sincerely, not profusely/dramatically) etc. could help her let go. But I’m talking here about something real, not about some new-fashioned wishy-washy liberal **** of the kind that makes people hysterical about their space or privacy or whatever. Rather something like neglect (ignoring her) or being mean (sarcasm, offensive words, passive aggression, guilt trips, unfair accusations) or overly critical (blowing failures and shortcomings out of proportion) or something else that has real substance rather than some imaginary rights and needs invented by liberal writers and connected with their anthropology.

Also, the world doesn’t revolve around her, and just because she was unhappy or unfulfilled in this or that aspect of her life, even life with you, doesn’t mean that the earth has stopped moving or that you’re completely and utterly at fault and can’t take any rest until she allows you to fix it.

As for not finding even a couple of minutes to chit-chat with someone she’s bring up children with — come on, even divorced people engage in small talk — something’s clearly wrong, and yes, it’s something wrong with her.

If she rejects the premise that something is wrong with her or her behaviour, well, her rejection is not binding on you. You need to respect her boundaries, but she isn’t there to tell you what’s good and what’s evil, what’s right or wrong, what’s true or false etc. (The fact that it wouldn’t necessarily be expedient to mention this to her, especially due to therapeutic concerns, is a different, separate thing.)

 

[chevalier]

One other thought has just crossed my mind, but you need to take into account that I’m not an expert on this, I can be wrong on such things, and even have been in the past. But it seems to me that she’s acting in an egocentric way, and perhaps you and/or other people may have tolerated that too much until she became not even convinced but ‘taught’ (internally, organically) that it’s the normal way of thinking or acting. Why it’s not good to spoil people too much. And why men actually shouldn’t treat women like some sacrosanct beings that must never be criticized (women who insist on that sort of treatment have identity issues and are not pleasant people to begin with, unless they have a boatload of redeeming qualities).

By egocentric I don’t necessarily mean a proper egoist or someone consciously looking out for no. 1, but more like a person with NPD, caused perhaps by childhood trauma involving parental neglect and/or overly sheltered and uncritical upbringing (these two may be opposites, but they may also still evoke the same reaction in the child, either by way of conditioning to expect such excessive concern or praise or by conditioning to expect it by way of compensation, for a child that has seen too little of it).

What else? You mentioned unequally yoked. What’s her view of marriage, Catholic or not quite? Does she believe in sticking for the vows or in deserving/looking for another chance when it turns out the spouse isn’t the ideal soulmate?

 

[chevalier]

Our spiritual life at home is good, but could always be better. We attend Mass regularly, kids are alter servers, we pray together as a family nightly before bed and before meals. We attend reconcilation regularly as a family (my wife not as much) and faith is regular topic of conversation in our home. I volunteer at our church and the catholic school our children attend. My wife’s first marriage has not been annulled and she has no desire to do so. She has not said so, but I know she didn’t understand my strong desire to have my first marriage to be annulled, nor does she see the importance of having our marriage blessed by the Church.

Your statement of “reading the situation and the needs of each family member, and crafting a solution to fit” is exactly what I am trying to do…and sadly leaving my wife behind, if you will, is unfortunately appearing to be the solution. One I am not so keen on persuing. I made a committment to my wife, in good times and bad, in sickness and health, so walking away from her emotional needs, friendship and companionship is not something I’m quick to execute. I’m desperately trying to think how Christ would react in this situation.

Awch! Well, I guess I’ve got the answer to my last question. See, as far as reconciliation goes, one normally can’t receive absolution and be allowed communion when having relations with a non-spouse, which includes spouse in a non-sacramental marriage. Since you two don’t have marital relations at this time, you could receive absolution and communion with the other conditions being met.

But, sorry to break it to you, if you don’t have a valid and sacramental marriage in place, then you shouldn’t be seeking intimacy (and not only physical, but even emotional of that certain special sort), all the more so considering that your wife might actually be married to another man — at least as long as it wasn’t a clear case of baptized Catholic marrying without form.

Now, if your wife doesn’t seem to care about the status of her marriage, then you’ve got serious problems in place. Same if she doesn’t understand and doesn’t care that it is important to you and just won’t go forward with it because she doesn’t feel like.

Finally, is there any possibility that she actually knows her previous marriage to be actually valid and still binding? That would explain pulling away from you.

Yes, I understand the living as brother and sister part, I know that is necessary if we don’t have a valid marriage in the eyes of the Church. But then there is also no emotional or spiritual intimacy. So what do you have then?

Brother and sister doesn’t have exceptions for non-physical things. It basically means someone else’s spouse, as marriages are supposed to be presumed valid until proven otherwise. Things would be a little different if she hadn’t previously attempted marriage, then she’d be just a fiancée, thus free game for dating and bonding, so to say.

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In any case, if her pulling away from you prevents — sorry for the word — physical adultery or emotional affair or something like that where she is the wife of another man, then that would be a service to you. Like I said, this is different if she has a clear-cut lack-of-form like JP marriage between baptized Catholics and no dispensation, but even then the difference would be only for things like dating etc. (as between people who are having a relationship and discerning marriage).