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Unfinished
Guest
Sorry. Same enemy, different outfit.
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Ray_Scheel
Guest
Though this has already been addressed in detail, I’ll take if from another angle: The 1965 missal addressed almost every pastoral recommendation of Vatican II except for a revised and expanded lectionary; the changes introduced by the 1969 missal contained many changes that introduced new instances of what Vatican II’s official documents had identified as pastoral concerns to be eliminiated or minimized. The 1965 missal was essentially the unofficial consensus of the changes requested to the order of mass by the actual voting participants of Vatican II, as it was already in draft form when teh council closed and had been passed around for review. When Vatican II closed, completing the taks of expanding the lectionary was the only clearly stated task of the committee that eventually produced the missal released in 1969.
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palmas85
Guest
The problem now is that the OLD ENEMY normally isn’t recognized anymore and is in fact, denied to even exist by many in the Church including Priests and Bishops.
When was the last time you heard of Lucifer or Satan or Demons or Hell even mentioned at a Pauline Rite Mass? Or how about the prayer to St Michael the Archangel? I’d be surprised if most people these days even know it, let alone pray it regularly.
No, the OLD ENEMY has made himself very non threatening and even very laughable. Just a big joke, something held over from medievil times that the modern man has no need of.
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Formosus
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I would cosider myself a Traditionalist, and while I would hope for a return of the 62 missal, I would be perfectly fine with the 65 missal. It is , IMO , the true desire of the VII father’s on the liturgy and surely shows far more continuity with Tradition.
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palmas85
Guest
I agree, the 65 Missal would be a vast improvement over the Pauline, and yet would still incorporate what most people say they really want, vernacular usage and lay participation…
Maybe that is the direction they are considering going. I’m not optimsitic, but it would be a good and workable compromise.
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ncjohn
Guest
Was the '65 missal totally suppresed with the advent of the NO? Or is there an idult somewhere for its use?
I have to be honest that I had not seen it before and just took a quick look at it. As long as the Canon was indeed done in the vernacular, from my quick look, I don’t know that it wouldn’t be a valid compromise, at least as an option, if the universal TLM indult doesn’t occur.
Peace,
I have to be honest that I had not seen it before and just took a quick look at it. As long as the Canon was indeed done in the vernacular, from my quick look, I don’t know that it wouldn’t be a valid compromise, at least as an option, if the universal TLM indult doesn’t occur.
Peace,
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birdsofdawn
Guest
I am also a fairly recent con/re-vert
)); might somebody explain about the revised and expanded lectionary, maybe a before and after? (Do we have more readings now? I think I’ve understood that part of Vatican II’s intention was to focus more on the Scriptures, is this what was referred to?)Also, is the 1969 Missal the one we have now? Or was it still partly Latin and so on?
Finally, when did priests generally start to face the congregation rather than the tabernacle, as a point of reference?
Thank you!
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brotherhrolf
Guest
I thought that the Mass of the 65 Missal was sheer torture. It was meant to transition us from pre to post VII liturgies -nothing more. If I remember correctly (and I was an altar boy at the time), the priest faced the people and the Mass was about half and half Latin/English. Vestments changed although the communion rails would be there for another few years. It was very awkward. The faithful could not use their 62 Missal and had to rely upon the “missal” magazines. Yes, there was more scripture added during this time period. We transitioned from an Epistle and a Gospel to the current Old Testament reading, followed by a New Testament reading, followed by a psalm, followed by the Gospel.
By 69 the baby had gotten thrown out with the bathwater IMHO and we had completely transitioned to English and all of a sudden it was OK to sing Simon and Garfunkle at my graduation Mass from a Catholic high school.
One has to search high and low to find a reverent NO today and even that is a pale reflection of what I knew from my childhood pre-VII. It should be remembered that there are some of us who are young enough (in our mid 50s or so) to remember that there were a whole bunch of people in our individual parishes who did NOT want to transition to the NO and that VII was not seen as a new springtime by most of us living in the era.
By 69 the baby had gotten thrown out with the bathwater IMHO and we had completely transitioned to English and all of a sudden it was OK to sing Simon and Garfunkle at my graduation Mass from a Catholic high school.
One has to search high and low to find a reverent NO today and even that is a pale reflection of what I knew from my childhood pre-VII. It should be remembered that there are some of us who are young enough (in our mid 50s or so) to remember that there were a whole bunch of people in our individual parishes who did NOT want to transition to the NO and that VII was not seen as a new springtime by most of us living in the era.
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palmas85
Guest
The 65 was never to the best of my knowledge 100%official and there were variatiosn in different areas. It was seen as a transitional Mass because the reformers knew they didn’t want anything that was as close to the Traditional was the 65 was.
As far as the Canon, in the Missals I have from that time it was done in Latin… Most of the rest of the Mass was in the vernacular but the Canon was in Latin, but as I said, there were variations. Heck some places used the 62 Missal all the way up through the final promulagtion of the Pauline itself and never used even the 65. I was overseas for most of the time between 65 and 70 and divine serviices in the military were then and I guess still are sometimes patchworked together, but I recall that on several times back home it was done as I described earlier.
I think it could work as a compromise. And I do think it was infinitely superior to the Pauline.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Palmas if I remember correctly, the Canon was in Latin but we broke mid-stride for the Memorial Acclamation in English - which was just bizzarre. The tune of the Lord’s Prayer which is pretty much the same as the chant was introduced and the Our Father was chanted in English but if I remember correctly, the Angus Dei was still in Latin. I was in high school in New Orleans when all of this happened so I obviously can’t speak about what was going on in the rest of the country.
But I do remember that the Brothers who taught me stated that it was strictly a transitional Mass meant to ease use from all Latin to all English. And after my sophomore year in 67 -68, the Brothers went from wearing cassocks and rosaries to black pants, white shirt, and black tie. And we started singing obnoxious folk music (Sons of God, hear his holy word…And they’ll know we are Christians by our love).
I was alive during the period…didn’t like it then…don’t like it now. Parce Domine!
But I do remember that the Brothers who taught me stated that it was strictly a transitional Mass meant to ease use from all Latin to all English. And after my sophomore year in 67 -68, the Brothers went from wearing cassocks and rosaries to black pants, white shirt, and black tie. And we started singing obnoxious folk music (Sons of God, hear his holy word…And they’ll know we are Christians by our love).
I was alive during the period…didn’t like it then…don’t like it now. Parce Domine!
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birdsofdawn
Guest
Hmm. Might somebody quickly explain “The Pauline”?
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brotherhrolf
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Pauline= the Mass of Pope Paul VI - the current NO Mass.
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Cavaille-Coll
Guest
The problem is that there is a whole segment of the population that worships CHANGE. Status quo is a bad word for them. If something hasn’t changed for a while, it must be made to do so. First the council didn’t go far enough, then the Novus Ordo, Humanae Vitae, and everything else you can think of. Any perceived restoration is called “turning back the clock.” I prefer to think of moving toward orthodoxy as starting a clock that hasn’t been wound for thirty-five years. It is happening, though slowly, but I’m optomistic that Catholics are beginning to see the difference between a return to something proven effective, such as a more reverent Mass, versus seeking yet another way to flog a dead horse.
Now, “Sons of God, hear His holy Word” would have been changed by New Dawn Music (OCP’s masculinity filter) to be “Children of the Deity, understand God’s really cool message” (We can’t alienate women, the deaf, the illiterate, or the unholy, of course!).
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Marian_Carroll
Guest
If there is no further discussion on the much speculated about “Universal Indult”…then I take it the thread has self concluded?
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