Unjust war vs abortion

[Lapey]

And this my friend is a fair request by you. And I shall do so. With all due respect to Father Vic. I do believe compassion should play a Huge part in our developement and thinking. Peace.

I am excited that you have accepted my request. I hate when differing opinions lead to fights instead of progress and growth of the Church, us i mean.

PS. Father Vic is right i must say. If I teach wrong doctrine and moral theology, because I feel differently, I confuse people and lead them away from the truth, not towards it. Martin Luther’s intent according to history was not to split the Church but to reform it from within. Look what happened with that plan.

 

[cathoichelp]

Actually no.

There are virtually no instances where the mother could not remain until a viable age for the child.

Here is a great example.

kitv.com/r/11535130/detail.html

Thats a wonderful story!

But that is nothing like having serve hypertension early in pregnancy … or like my friend who has a serious heart condition and her heart was so taxed at only 7 weeks there was not way she wold survive a month much less a pregnancy …

I am not saying its common … its certainly not common most abortions are not for medical reasons.
than again most wars are not just -
its just those rare exceptions…

 

[davidv]

Thats a wonderful story!

But that is nothing like having serve hypertension early in pregnancy … or like my friend who has a serious heart condition and her heart was so taxed at only 7 weeks there was not way she wold survive a month much less a pregnancy …

I am not saying its common … its certainly not common most abortions are not for medical reasons.
than again most wars are not just -
its just those rare exceptions…

So, it seems then that you agree with the Catholic teaching that killing in a unjust war and abortion are both gravely immoral.

 

[cathoichelp]

So do you believe that ALL of the rapist’s children deserve Capital Punishment, or only the child that resulted from the rape?

I am only going to reply to this thread one more time because its going down a dangerous road… -

Some women can get through a pregnancy conceived from rape… and give that child up for adoption. Some women can even keep that child- but that is not the norm.
This is an incredibly hard thing to do… it’s almost impossible - especially in more violent attacks …
It’s like having your worst fear growing right inside you - its hard to eat - its impossible to sleep… On top of probably more fear than most people can imagine and insane hormones … Its a horrible horrible situation. It consumes you. tears you apart and every aspect of that pregnancy is about a human life… it’s every day losing just a little more control at a time when you have none.
Most people learn the world is unsafe slowly or in an almost surreal way … when you realize how unsafe you truly are … how much another person can hurt in this way - by being raped… It’s like having every once of security ripped from your body.

Some women can get through this. They can. But the vast majority can not.

Until you walk a second in the shoes of someone who has been through this I’d suggest you watch how you say things. That is the most absurd and heartless thing I heard in quite some time.
I am positive that women in this situation don’t wake up fresh and careful and say hey i want to go murder some babies today.

I honestly am not offended by anyone having an opinion on the subject. We are all entitled to opinions. But you really don’t seem to grasp the gravity of this situation in the least (judging by that post) and you have no idea who you are talking to or who is reading what you write.
Everyone’s rights in these situations are violated. No one wins …

 

[cathoichelp]

So, it seems then that you agree with the Catholic teaching that killing in a unjust war and abortion are both gravely immoral.

I am kind of done with thread to be honest.

I think there are just abortions - I think that is rare… very rare -

I am not sure i think a war is ever “just” however I do think that stopping something evil is admirable … and we have to look at where we are as a society. We aren’t past the point of needing “war” to some extend but I don’t think most wars come close to be justly fought … even if the cause was justified - the actual actions are another story all together -

Do I think using abortion as birth control is morally right … absolutely not -
Do I think abortions can be prevented… yes in a lot of cases they can. I worked in the field - Its something I feel strongly about …
women need support they need to be understood that is how you prevent abortions … you stop judging people and listen. You wont stop every one … But I found a lot of women need options more than termination of pregnancy. They were scared-
Compassion goes a long way.

 

[davidv]

I am kind of done with thread to be honest.

I think there are just abortions - I think that is rare… very rare -

I am not sure i think a war is ever “just” however I do think that stopping something evil is admirable … and we have to look at where we are as a society. We aren’t past the point of needing “war” to some extend but I don’t think most wars come close to be justly fought … even if the cause was justified - the actual actions are another story all together -

Do I think using abortion as birth control is morally right … absolutely not -
Do I think abortions can be prevented… yes in a lot of cases they can. I worked in the field - Its something I feel strongly about …
women need support they need to be understood that is how you prevent abortions … you stop judging people and listen. You wont stop every one … But I found a lot of women need options more than termination of pregnancy. They were scared-
Compassion goes a long way.

I am truely sorry the you think (apparently only based on emotion) that a gravely immoral act is ever justified.

 

[Greg27]

The question as posed is a bit vague. Do you mean a single abortion compared to a single life lost as a result of an unjust war, or abortion considered as a whole across the world or in a country compared to an unjust war?

To me the moral issues are quite different; the moral considerations that go into judging whether a war is just or unjust are generally different from considering whether an abortion is morally right or wrong. There is some overlap though in the question when it is morally permissible to take human life. In that regard, the question of whether it is morally right or wrong to terminate the life of an unborn person is similar to whether it is morally right or wrong to kill people in wars (whether soldiers or civilians).

 

[benidict]

I am only going to reply to this thread one more time because its going down a dangerous road… -

Some women can get through a pregnancy conceived from rape… and give that child up for adoption. Some women can even keep that child- but that is not the norm.
This is an incredibly hard thing to do… it’s almost impossible - especially in more violent attacks …
It’s like having your worst fear growing right inside you - its hard to eat - its impossible to sleep… On top of probably more fear than most people can imagine and insane hormones … Its a horrible horrible situation. It consumes you. tears you apart and every aspect of that pregnancy is about a human life… it’s every day losing just a little more control at a time when you have none.
Most people learn the world is unsafe slowly or in an almost surreal way … when you realize how unsafe you truly are … how much another person can hurt in this way - by being raped… It’s like having every once of security ripped from your body.

Some women can get through this. They can. But the vast majority can not.

Until you walk a second in the shoes of someone who has been through this I’d suggest you watch how you say things. That is the most absurd and heartless thing I heard in quite some time.
I am positive that women in this situation don’t wake up fresh and careful and say hey i want to go murder some babies today.

I honestly am not offended by anyone having an opinion on the subject. We are all entitled to opinions. But you really don’t seem to grasp the gravity of this situation in the least (judging by that post) and you have no idea who you are talking to or who is reading what you write.
Everyone’s rights in these situations are violated. No one wins …

My last post on this thread too. I am in full agreement with you My friend. and I am afraid we have those here, who would withhold forgiveness and mercy, until there is a confession from the person who had to make this heart breaking choice. I think we have those of my faith, who Would have stoned the woman caught in adultery. Jesus did not ask for a confession from the woman accused, nor did he condemn. He offered compassion, knowing full well what she had done. Could he have allowed them to stone the woman. Yep. After all, It was HE who gave the law to Moses. The Pharisees were correct. But Jesus showed compassion. I hope to follow HIS example, and not those who follow the letter but forget the spirit of what is written. I dont think we have argued so much from emotion, but from the side of reason. Peace to you and yours. :grouphug:

 

[benidict]

I am excited that you have accepted my request. I hate when differing opinions lead to fights instead of progress and growth of the Church, us i mean.

PS. Father Vic is right i must say. If I teach wrong doctrine and moral theology, because I feel differently, I confuse people and lead them away from the truth, not towards it. Martin Luther’s intent according to history was not to split the Church but to reform it from within. Look what happened with that plan.

Lapey. I will fulfill what I have stated I will. But conciencewise. I must say, I believe your position to be wrong. And although I will research. I am not going to promise My view will change anytime soon. Just giving you a heads up. I am a conservative liberatarian. My view is held my many conservative Republicans, and Protestants as well. I know I disagree with the Church on this. And It is based on ethics. Peace and prayers for you.

 

[davidv]

My last post on this thread too. I am in full agreement with you My friend. and I am afraid we have those here, who would withhold forgiveness and mercy, until there is a confession from the person who had to make this heart breaking choice. I think we have those of my faith, who Would have stoned the woman caught in adultery. Jesus did not ask for a confession from the woman accused, nor did he condemn. He offered compassion, knowing full well what she had done. Could he have allowed them to stone the woman. Yep. After all, It was HE who gave the law to Moses. The Pharisees were correct. But Jesus showed compassion. I hope to follow HIS example, and not those who follow the letter but forget the spirit of what is written. I dont think we have argued so much from emotion, but from the side of reason. Peace to you and yours. :grouphug:

Why have you so badly misrepresented what has been presented here? Forgiveness was never the topic, morality of the action was. Calling an action immoral in no way implies lack of forgiveness.

 

[Lapey]

Lapey. I will fulfill what I have stated I will. But conciencewise. I must say, I believe your position to be wrong. And although I will research. I am not going to promise My view will change anytime soon. Just giving you a heads up. I am a conservative liberatarian. My view is held my many conservative Republicans, and Protestants as well. I know I disagree with the Church on this. And It is based on ethics. Peace and prayers for you.

If you are Catholic the only view that matters is the view of the Church, its quite simple.

 

[meltzerboy]

Why have you so badly misrepresented what has been presented here? Forgiveness was never the topic, morality of the action was. Calling an action immoral in no way implies lack of forgiveness.

So you blame the sin and forgive the sinner (albeit only G-d may ultimately forgive). The sin is the abortion. But whom do you consider the sinner to be here: the mother who has the abortion, the doctor and their assistants who perform it, the hospital in which the abortion takes place, the mother’s family who participates in giving consent to the abortion or who knows about it and does nothing to discourage or prevent it, the legislators who made it legal, the pro-abortion culture, all of the above? How many murderers and accomplices do we have and are they all guilty of the sin of abortion to the same degree?

 

[davidv]

So you blame the sin and forgive the sinner (albeit only G-d may ultimately forgive). The sin is the abortion. But whom do you consider the sinner to be here: the mother who has the abortion, the doctor and their assistants who perform it, the hospital in which the abortion takes place, the mother’s family who participates in giving consent to the abortion or who knows about it and does nothing to discourage or prevent it, the legislators who made it legal, the pro-abortion culture, all of the above? How many murderers and accomplices do we have and are they all guilty of the sin of abortion to the same degree?

Why does it matter who I think the sinners are? The sinner and God knows who they are.
Why do think they all have the same degree of guilt?

 

[meltzerboy]

Why does it matter who I think the sinners are? The sinner and God knows who they are.
Why do think they all have the same degree of guilt?

Since you had mentioned in response to another poster that calling abortion an immoral act does not mean one cannot forgive the perpetrator of the act, I was curious regarding whom you thought is guilty of the act of abortion and whether they are guilty in the same degree. In other words, who should be forgiven? I don’t think it’s such an unreasonable question since the act of murder, as you call abortion, must have a murderer. So who is the murderer in your view?

 

[davidv]

Since you had mentioned in response to another poster that calling abortion an immoral act does not mean one cannot forgive the perpetrator of the act, I was curious regarding whom you thought is guilty of the act of abortion and whether they are guilty in the same degree. In other words, who should be forgiven?

The ones who repent and ask for forgiveness.

I don’t think it’s such an unreasonable question since the act of murder, as you call abortion, must have a murderer. So who is the murderer in your view?

The one who commits murder, or is complicit in it.