Unusual teachings in our RCIA class

[djrakowski]

I’m in RCIA, and the deacon teaching our class has made some strange claims over the past few weeks.

First, he made the claim that in heaven, we’d all appear to be 33 years old, because that was Our Lord’s age when he died.

The next week, he brought in some materials about something called ‘generational prayer,’ whereby we can pray and free ourselves from generations of sin heaped on us by our families.

Last night, he claimed that Christ was born on December 25, that he died on March 25, and that John the Baptist was beheaded on March 25, and that there was also something significant about Mary that took place on March 25. As a Protestant, we’d always considered it unnecessary to place exact dates on these events (since it doesn’t really matter when, as long as they actually happened). These claims sound more like pious legends than historical and/or theological facts.

Does anyone have any evidence that these assertions are accepted and/or taught by the Church?

 

[mercygate]

djrakowski:

I’m in RCIA, and the deacon teaching our class has made some strange claims over the past few weeks.

First, he made the claim that in heaven, we’d all appear to be 33 years old, because that was Our Lord’s age when he died.

The next week, he brought in some materials about something called ‘generational prayer,’ whereby we can pray and free ourselves from generations of sin heaped on us by our families.

Last night, he claimed that Christ was born on December 25, that he died on March 25, and that John the Baptist was beheaded on March 25, and that there was also something significant about Mary that took place on March 25. As a Protestant, we’d always considered it unnecessary to place exact dates on these events (since it doesn’t really matter when, as long as they actually happened). These claims sound more like pious legends than historical and/or theological facts.

Does anyone have any evidence that these assertions are accepted and/or taught by the Church?

Did it come up as part of the “curriculum” or was it just personal commentary? Take it to the pastor.

A case CAN be made for a December 25 birth of Jesus (believe it or not). Who knows whether March 25 for Jesus’ death is a case – I suppose you can juggle with the ancient calendars and come up with that. We celebrate the feast of the Annunciation (when Gabriel came to Mary) on March 25. I would think there are far more important things to do in RCIA than this.

 

[netmilsmom]

djrakowski:

I’m in RCIA, and the deacon teaching our class has made some strange claims over the past few weeks.

First, he made the claim that in heaven, we’d all appear to be 33 years old, because that was Our Lord’s age when he died.

The next week, he brought in some materials about something called ‘generational prayer,’ whereby we can pray and free ourselves from generations of sin heaped on us by our families.

Last night, he claimed that Christ was born on December 25, that he died on March 25, and that John the Baptist was beheaded on March 25, and that there was also something significant about Mary that took place on March 25. As a Protestant, we’d always considered it unnecessary to place exact dates on these events (since it doesn’t really matter when, as long as they actually happened). These claims sound more like pious legends than historical and/or theological facts.

Does anyone have any evidence that these assertions are accepted and/or taught by the Church?

Great. This has no place in RCIA.

 

[djrakowski]

mercygate:

Did it come up as part of the “curriculum” or was it just personal commentary? Take it to the pastor.

A case CAN be made for a December 25 birth of Jesus (believe it or not). Who knows whether March 25 for Jesus’ death is a case – I suppose you can juggle with the ancient calendars and come up with that. We celebrate the feast of the Annunciation (when Gabriel came to Mary) on March 25. I would think there are far more important things to do in RCIA than this.

These matters are not part of our curriculum. They’re personal commentary by the deacon who’s teaching our class. We were discussing the Liturgy of the Eucharist, and the deacon was (correctly) drawing parallels between the Passover sacrifice and the death of Our Lord. Someone asked whether this parallel was simply coincidental, or intentional. Deacon answered (correctly) that it was intentional on the part of God to draw such parallels so that we can understand how Jesus is the fulfillment of the Passover, but then added, as if to emphasize how nothing ordained by God is anything but intentional, that all of these significant events happened on March 25. That’s where he strayed from the curriculum and into his personal speculations.

It seems that RCIA is NOT a place to discuss folk piety, speculative theology or private revelation. I’m there to learn what you *must *believe in order to become Catholic, not what you may believe.

I’ve been to the pastor once, and I think one other classmate has, as well. I’ll have to make another appointment with him soon.

 

[estesbob]

djrakowski:

It seems that RCIA is NOT a place to discuss folk piety, speculative theology or private revelation. I’m there to learn what you *must *believe in order to become Catholic, not what you may believe.

I’ve been to the pastor once, and I think one other classmate has, as well. I’ll have to make another appointment with him soon.

If you dont get results from your pastor i would suggest taking it to the Diocese. What your Deacon is teaching has no place in an RCIA class. My fear is that throwing out all these non doctrinal ideas is going to run people off-he seems to be playing into every stereotype that protestants have of Catholics.

 

[Mickey]

There is no place for his personal opinions in RCIA.

 

[djrakowski]

estesbob:

If you dont get results from your pastor i would suggest taking it to the Diocese. What your Deacon is teaching has no place in an RCIA class. My fear is that throwing out all these non doctrinal ideas is going to run people off-he seems to be playing into every stereotype that protestants have of Catholics.

I have to admit, that if I hadn’t studied any of the material on my own prior to starting this class, that I would’ve left 2-3 weeks ago. I have exactly the same fear.

 

[Matt16_18]

djrakowski:

It seems that RCIA is NOT a place to discuss folk piety, speculative theology or private revelation. I’m there to learn what you *must *believe in order to become Catholic, not what you may believe.

You seem to know the difference between “folk piety” and Catholic dogma. I see no problem with giving one’s theological opinions in RCIA, as long as what is said is clearly identified as being a theological opinion, and as long as the opinion does not contradict actual Catholic dogma. If the deacon tells you something that you suspect is not dogma, and you are confused about this point, ask the deacon to show you where what he has said is taught in the CCC, or what document of the Magisterium supports his belief.

For example, a person might in RCIA might ask a question concerning the statue of Saint Joseph in his church – why does the staff of St. Joseph has a lily growing out of the staff? It would not be possible to answer this question without teaching “folk piety”. It is my experience that converts are interested in these small “t” traditions, as they want to embrace the whole experience of being Catholic, and not just learn dogma only.

 

[djrakowski]

Matt16_18:

You seem to know the difference between “folk piety” and Catholic dogma. I see no problem with giving one’s theological opinions in RCIA, as long as what is said is clearly identified as being a theological opinion, and as long as the opinion does not contradict actual Catholic dogma. If the deacon tells you something that you suspect is not dogma, and you are confused about this point, ask the deacon to show you where what he has said is taught in the CCC, or what document of the Magisterium supports his belief.

This is precisely the problem. He is flatly stating his personal theological speculations as fact. I will start doing as you’ve suggested and ask him where I can find evidence of his statements in the CCC.

Matt16_18:

For example, a person might in RCIA might ask a question concerning the statue of Saint Joseph in his church – why does the staff of St. Joseph has a lily growing out of the staff? It would not be possible to answer this question without teaching “folk piety”. It is my experience that converts are interested in these small “t” traditions, as they want to embrace the whole experience of being Catholic, and not just learn dogma only.

I’m interested in small ‘t’ traditions, but that isn’t why I’m becoming Catholic. I’m converting because of absolutely known Truth. But it isn’t clear, based on the way the deacon has been presenting these ideas, that they are small ‘t’ traditions. I’m beginning to think that he oftentimes doesn’t understand the distinction between 't’radition and 'T’radition.

In your example of the statue of St. Joseph, you would hope that the teacher would preface his comments by stating that it is a popular tradition to depict certain saints in certain ways, and that it has nothing to do with the dogmas of the Church. In the case of fixing the dates of the deaths and births of Jesus and John the Baptist, it wasn’t stated as “it has been claimed by some that these were the dates”- it was stated as “Jesus was born on December 25, and died on March 25, one year on the exact day after John the Baptist was beheaded. That’s a fact.”

Indeed, the only people in our class who don’t have a problem, and aren’t becoming confused by what he’s saying, are cradle Catholics, and they keep steering the deacon away from discussions on dogmatic truth and into popular piety. At least one gentleman is constantly on the edge of leaving the class over such issues, and one of my friends is, I suspect, right in line behind him.

 

[forthright]

As long as we hold Dec 25th as the birth of Christ, then celebrating March 25th (9 months earlier) as the Annunciation makes perfect sense. However, there are also good arguments against Dec 25th being the literal date (i.e. shepherds don’t tend their flocks in the fields this time of year).

Looking at ancient calendars, one might be able to give credence to the March 25th date of Jesus’ death or resurrection, but I’ve never heard of that being done successfully. (Given that we’re not 100% certain of the year of Christ’s birth, I suppose this would be difficult to do.)

All the rest of this junk (33 yrs old, John the Baptist, etc.) is pure speculation at best, complete garbage at worst. You definitely need to bring this up to the Pastor.

 

[djrakowski]

forthright:

As long as we hold Dec 25th as the birth of Christ, then celebrating March 25th (9 months earlier) as the Annunciation makes perfect sense. However, there are also good arguments against Dec 25th being the literal date (i.e. shepherds don’t tend their flocks in the fields this time of year).

Looking at ancient calendars, one might be able to give credence to the March 25th date of Jesus’ death or resurrection, but I’ve never heard of that being done successfully. (Given that we’re not 100% certain of the year of Christ’s birth, I suppose this would be difficult to do.)

Thanks for your comments. These issues were not presented with any alternatives - in other words, Jesus was born on Dec. 25, and died on Mar. 25, and that’s it. I’ve read lots of material on this issue that the date of Dec. 25 is highly unlikely for exactly the reason you stated, but that wasn’t raised in class.

forthright:

All the rest of this junk (33 yrs old, John the Baptist, etc.) is pure speculation at best, complete garbage at worst. You definitely need to bring this up to the Pastor.

I will. Thanks for the encouragement!

Dan

 

[Mickey]

djrakowski:

Indeed, the only people in our class who don’t have a problem, and aren’t becoming confused by what he’s saying, are cradle Catholics, and they keep steering the deacon away from discussions on dogmatic truth and into popular piety. At least one gentleman is constantly on the edge of leaving the class over such issues, and one of my friends is, I suspect, right in line behind him.

That’s a bummer. I vote that you start teaching the class.

 

[djrakowski]

Mickey:

That’s a bummer. I vote that you start teaching the class.

I’m humbled and thankful at the same time. I’m certain that I’m not up to the task, but would love to do something along these lines after being received into the Church.

Wouldn’t it be great if priests had enough time to teach these classes themselves? I know there are good and bad priests, but at least at our parish, where they’re all very orthodox, it would be a significant improvement.

Dan

 

[Mickey]

djrakowski:

I’m humbled and thankful at the same time. I’m certain that I’m not up to the task, but would love to do something along these lines after being received into the Church.

Wouldn’t it be great if priests had enough time to teach these classes themselves? I know there are good and bad priests, but at least at our parish, where they’re all very orthodox, it would be a significant improvement.

Dan

Yes, sadly the priesthood is spread thin. But so often I see protestant converts to Catholicism become superb communicators of the doctrine. With your apparent grasp of proper Catholic teaching, perhaps this is in your future.

God bless you,
Mickey

 

[Matt16_18]

djrakowski:

I’m interested in small ‘t’ traditions, but that isn’t why I’m becoming Catholic. I’m converting because of absolutely known Truth.

The only reason to convert.

… it isn’t clear, based on the way the deacon has been presenting these ideas, that they are small ‘t’ traditions. I’m beginning to think that he oftentimes doesn’t understand the distinction between 't’radition and 'T’radition.

Part of an RCIA progam should include instruction dedicated to understanding the difference between 't’radition and 'T’radition. It is very important to understand why priestly celibacy is a changeable 't’radition, and why the prohibition against artificial contraception is unchangable 'T’radition.

… the only people in our class who don’t have a problem, and aren’t becoming confused by what he’s saying, are cradle Catholics, and they keep steering the deacon away from discussions on dogmatic truth and into popular piety.

That is not appropriate. Some Catholics know more about the latest Marian apparition, or what Maria Valtorta wrote in the Poem of the Man-God than what is written in the CCC, and what interests them personally, is what they want to discuss in class.

RCIA classes should be presenting a systematic exposition of the fundamental doctrines of the faith. There is simply not enough time available in an RCIA program to pack the classes with discussions about things that aren’t essential to the faith.

Be charitable, but talk to the pastor about your concerns. Converts to the Catholic faith will make a solemn Profession of Faith where they confess before man and God, “I believe and profess all that the holy Catholic Church believes, teaches, and proclaims to be revealed by God.”

Making this vow is a serious matter, and it is vital that candidates know the difference between popular piety (private revelation) and what is “revealed by God” (public revelation). It would be a great tragedy to lose a convert because he felt he could not, in good conscience, make this vow to God because of poor catechesis.

 

[Fidelis]

Most of what you report the Deacon as saying was indeed pious speculation and, provided he explains it thoroughly as such, there is no harm in bringing it up, provided of course that it does not substantially detract from the time spent on teaching the essentials of the Faith.

This, however:

The next week, he brought in some materials about something called ‘generational prayer,’ whereby we can pray and free ourselves from generations of sin heaped on us by our families.

…is just plain looney New Age hooey that has no place in a Catholic Church, let alone in RCIA.

(Why do so many reports of this type of nonsense seem to come out of Michigan and the surrounding areas?? )

 

[Franze]

djrakowski, I pray for you, and please pray for your teachers, we need better cathequesis.

 

[rayne89]

I’m really sorry you’re experiencing this. I’m quite surprised that Fr. hasn’t been more firm with the deacon in question. I just started a Bible study with the same deacon and now it makes me leary about what is fact and what is speculation as far as his comments. I’ll be missing tonight because I’m not feeling well. Last week seemed ok.

Don’t give up. This deacon is not the church, and within Christ’s Church you find mostly imperfect individuals. We were at a different parish when my husband converted and actually had to deal with quite liberal ideas being taught. The devil wreaked havoc in our lives through the whole process. Sometimes things happen to test our faith. You know the Church is the true Church. Do not lose sight of that - no one would be happier than satan to see you turn away from RCIA and the Catholic church.

When my husband came into the church what he learned about the teachings of the faith did not come from RCIA - unfortunately. Through EWTN, good books and Catholic radio is where we got the truths about the faith. But if my husband would have given up he would be missing so much in his life. The gift of the Eucharist and absolution through confession just for starters.

Hang in there and try to keep your fellow classmates from jumping ship. You won’t be sorry. Keep dialoging with father hopefully it will keep all these extra comments down to a minimum.

God Bless.

 

[djrakowski]

rayne89:

I’m really sorry you’re experiencing this. I’m quite surprised that Fr. hasn’t been more firm with the deacon in question. I just started a Bible study with the same deacon and now it makes me leary about what is fact and what is speculation as far as his comments. I’ll be missing tonight because I’m not feeling well. Last week seemed ok.

First, I hope you’re feeling better soon! Second, I think your Bible study is being taught by the other deacon. Let me know how it goes.

rayne89:

Don’t give up. This deacon is not the church, and within Christ’s Church you find mostly imperfect individuals.

Oh, I’m not worried about myself. I just don’t want us to lose folks because of these ‘teachings.’