Us versus them?

[Peter_J]

Do you guys that there is a bit of an “us vs. them” mentality?

The reason I’ve been thinking about this is something of Dr. Anthony Dragani’s that I read yesterday. It’s mostly about the ill treatment of Eastern Catholics, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, by Latin Catholic bishops (like Archbishop John Ireland) – a topic that I have read much about and discussed a number of times – but in that particular piece he also mentions that a “Byzantine bitterness” continues to exist among some ECs in North America.

I think he’s right, and I have to admit that I myself may have had some of that “bitterness” in me during that first several years that I attended EC parishes (I’m not cradle EC).

I’m curious as to whether Dragani’s claim that “you will only find such bitterness in North America” (because that’s where the aforementioned ill-treatment happened) is true, but I really don’t have enough experience with Eastern Catholics in other part of the world to be able to say. If anyone else can comment on that, I’d appreciate it; but I also welcome more general comments. (But please, no diatribes against Eastern Catholics.)

 

[lssanjose]

I, like you, not a cradle EC. But, only having begun going to Divine Liturgy a month, and a half ago, I kind of have this lukewarm feeling of us, vs. them, like you described. I think some of this sentiment was self-induced, inspired by the feeling I felt right after my first one: I’m hooked.

It seems to me, Dragani is right, in that, it is only a small percentage of people who feel this sense of antagonism towards Latin Catholics. I was warmly received at the Byzantine church I’m going to, right now. One even gave me the impression they didn’t want me to leave, out of fear after seeing my old address on the check I gave for the offertory. I was often affirmed of my presence being liked. I guess, it’s because they see I’m working hard to pick things up, and am an active participant, in divine liturgy.

I think, in my particular situation, many of the parishioners were more or less ushered into Roman churches, and eventually began establishing a Byzantine rite community, once the opportunity was presented to do so. The church I’ve been going to, began at a home, then moved to a what was once a Roman church. It’s been standing since they handover, in 2001 (?).

 

[ByzCathCantor]

From an insiders perspective, I would say that any bitterness that remains is a product of sadness over the state of the Church, and the thought of what might have been had such matters not created such real division in those days. The continued mixed signals from Rome on matter such as the married priesthood, in particular, serve only as reminders of this painful past.

In fairness, however, this is not the only causal factor. We have also suffered through much of what has happened to the Catholic Church in America, at large. Secularization and demographics of our own peoples (who are no longer tied to the Rust Belt and coal mines, etc.) have also contributed to the reduction in the numbers of faithful.

We have much to be thankful for, despite all this, and frankly there are many instances where the local Latin Catholic community has stepped in to ensure the survival of some of our parishes, with resources including bi-ritual priests. The pendulum has definitely swung the other way, but it is still swinging (albeit more slowly). Indeed, many of our parishes now count “cradle RCs” as parishioners.

Times have changed, but the soul of the Ruthenian Church (impacted most directly by much of what Dr. Dragani mentions and to which you refer) is still very much alive. The revival of the Churches in the Old Country in the last two decades has also been a source of inspiration.

 

[Peter_J]

It seems to me, Dragani is right, in that, it is only a small percentage of people who feel this sense of antagonism towards Latin Catholics.

Yes, I think so too. I’ve witnessed some of it, but mostly online, not so much in any of the EC parishes I’ve frequented. That’s not to say that online doesn’t count, but it may just be that my online activities over the last several years have gravitated toward websites that are more likely to have “Byzantine bitterness” or an “us vs. them” mentality.

 

[lssanjose]

Yes, I think so too. I’ve witnessed some of it, but mostly online, not so much in any of the EC parishes I’ve frequented. That’s not to say that online doesn’t count, but it may just be that my online activities over the last several years have gravitated toward websites that are more likely to have “Byzantine bitterness” or an “us vs. them” mentality.

My personal us, vs. them is in the realm of diving into Byzantine life (as I explained in the Eastern Catholic pope thread). In a way, I immediately adopted the Byzantine identity, via preliminary research; and eventual attendance of my first Divine Liturgy. In a way, I figured I would have to forgo my attendance at the Roman church I’ve been going to, in order to focus on refining, and adapting myself to the Byzantine life. Part of this motivation comes from needing to empty my Roman cup, or unlearn what I’ve learned in the past via Roman theology. I can’t fully appreciate the taste of Eastern church, if my cup’s already full.

I’m already butting heads, with some Latin rite individuals here, over some of my objections to, what I perceive, excessive tones of legalism over certain social/cultural issues. If this is characterized as an us. vs. them in the context of your original post, then I’m guilty as charged.

 

[countertenor]

Are you attending St. Irene’s or Nativity?

 

[lssanjose]

Are you attending St. Irene’s or Nativity?

St. Irene’s. Eugene is just too far, from my neck of the woods (Tigard/Portland). Although I’ve heard good things about Nativity, and I do like their website. I may talk to the pastor, or the congregation, about assisting in the updating of their website. I’m thinking of doing this, because of my first set of encounters with the parish, based on outdated information - due to no fault of their own . Although, Sunday’s Divine Liturgy did bring in four, or five curious Roman rite Catholics. I’m guessing, they found everything alright.

 

[countertenor]

St. Irene’s. Eugene is just too far, from my neck of the woods (Tigard/Portland). Although I’ve heard good things about Nativity, and I do like their website. I may talk to the pastor, or the congregation, about assisting in the updating of their website. I’m thinking of doing this, because of my first set of encounters with the parish, based on outdated information - due to no fault of their own . Although, Sunday’s Divine Liturgy did bring in four, or five curious Roman rite Catholics. I’m guessing, they found everything alright.

Yes both the websites could use some updating I think. Both are nice parishes. Both Fr. Richard and Fr. Frank are great.

 

[rciadan]

Sts Cyril and Methodius’s website leaves much to be disired as well. It has a lot of dead links, etc. They have pretty much deserted it in favor of a facebook page which they update all the time…