Usage of the word "until"

[cor5755]

Hello all, I am not an apologetist, but try to defend the Catholic faith as best as I can. This is something that I came across and hope someone can help me understand.
I read a book on apologetics that was defending the virginity of the Blessed Mother Mary. In this book, the question brought on was of Matthew 1:25 where Joseph “knew her not until she had born a son.”
In defense of the Catholic position, the apologist pointed to 2 Samuel 6:23, “and Micah daughter of Saul had no children until the day of her death.”
To me this clearly showed the meaning of until as used in the Matthew passage. When I looked this up in a King James Version,the Samuel passage was quite different, reading, “and Micah daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.”
My question is this: Does anyone know what the orginal Hebrew word used is in both cases, and does it have several meanings? I find that this change is very important to explaining the usage of the word “until”. Thanks for any help you can give in helping me better understand.

 

[John7]

In 2 Sam 6:23 the word is
עד / ad

indicates the distance from, advance toward, movement up to > until, up to, upon

Here’s some different ways it gets used:
Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.

Genesis 10:19 And the territory of the Canaanite extended from Sidon as you go toward Gerar, as far as Gaza; as you go toward Sodom and Gomorrah and Admah and Zeboiim, as far as Lasha.

Genesis 28:15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
In Matthew 1:25 the original Greek for ‘until’ is εως /eos. In the LXX (Greek Old Testament) Gen 6:7,10:19 and 28:15 all use ‘eos’ when the Hebrew ‘ad’ is used.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, it details the events or status of something up to a certain event, but is silent on what comes after that event.

For instance, while discussing the grave of Moses, the author say “and no one knows until this day where the grave site of Moses is”. That doesn’t mean that they found out the whereabouts of Moses grave. It just talks about how it was “until this day”.

 

[Light_Seeker]

I read a book on apologetics that was defending the virginity of the Blessed Mother Mary. In this book, the question brought on was of Matthew 1:25 where Joseph “knew her not until she had born a son.”
In defense of the Catholic position, the apologist pointed to 2 Samuel 6:23, “and Micah daughter of Saul had no children until the day of her death.”

This example sounds very familiar … was it Keatings book? If so, great book!

I looked at the Catholic Douay-Rheims, RSV-CE, and NAB, and the Protestant RSV, KJV, and Revised Version bibles for 2Sam6:23 Nowhere did I see it as “until” as claimed in the book you’re reading.

DR … to the day of her death
RSV-CE …to the day of her death
NAB …to the day of her death
KJV … unto the day of her death
RSV … to the day of her death
RV …unto the day of her death.

 

[COPLAND_3]

cor5755

Excellent observation! St. Jerome defends this wonderfully, here is the link

newadvent.org/fathers/3007.htm

 

[MarcoPolo]

I don’t remember where I got this but here you go:

The expression “heos” which is translated from the Greek as “until” is used in the Bible elsewhere:

Matt. 1:25 - this verse says Joseph knew her “not until (“heos”, in Greek)” she bore a son. Some Protestants argue that this proves Joseph had relations with Mary after she bore a son. This is an erroneous reading of the text because “not until” does not mean “did not…until after.” “Heos” references the past, never the future. Instead, “not until” she bore a son means “not up to the point that” she bore a son. This confirms that Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus.

Here are other texts that prove “not until” means “not up to the point that”. If Fredericks analysis is correct, imagine what that means regarding these passages:

Matt. 28:29 - I am with you “until the end of the world.” This does not mean Jesus is not with us after the end of the world.

According to Fredericks interpretation of “heos” (until) Jesus is with us until the end of the world but after that He is not.

Luke 2:37 - Anna was a widow “up to the point that” she was eighty-four years old. She was not a widow after eighty-four years old.

According to Fredericks interpretation of “heos” (until), Anna was a widow until she was 84. After that, she was not a widow.

Luke 20:43 - Jesus says, “take your seat at my hand until I have made your enemies your footstool.” Jesus is not going to require the apostles to sit at His left hand after their enemies are their footstool.

According to Fredericks interpretation of “heos” (until), Jesus is saying to take a seat at His hand until after He has made until your enemies are your footstool. So, what happens after enemies are your footstool?

Here are more examples of the same “until” which refers to the Virgin in Matt. 1:25:

Luke 1:80 - John was in the desert “up to the point of his manifestation to Israel.” Not John “was in the desert until after” his manifestation.

1 Tim. 4:13 - “up to the point that I come,” attend to teaching and preaching. It does not mean do nothing “until after” I come.

Gen. 8:7 - the raven flew back and forth “up to the point that” [until] the waters dried from the earth. The raven did not start flying after the waters dried.
Gen. 28:15 - the Lord won’t leave Jacob “up to the point that” he does His promise. This does not mean the Lord will leave Jacob afterward.

Deut. 34:6 - but “up to the point of today” no one knows Moses’ burial place. This does not mean that “they did not know place until today.”

2 Sam. 6:23 - Saul’s daughter Micah was childless “up to the point” [until] her death. She was not with child after her death.

1 Macc. 5:54 - not one was slain “up to the point that” they returned in peace. They were not slain after they returned in peace.

Gen 8:5 And the waters continued to abate until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains were seen. The waters diminished “until” the tenth month, but they kept diminishing even after that (or we would all be living on one square foot of land)

 

[Robbinson]

This example sounds very familiar … was it Keatings book? If so, great book!

I looked at the Catholic Douay-Rheims, RSV-CE, and NAB, and the Protestant RSV, KJV, and Revised Version bibles for 2Sam6:23 Nowhere did I see it as “until” as claimed in the book you’re reading.

DR … to the day of her death
RSV-CE …to the day of her death
NAB …to the day of her death
KJV … unto the day of her death
RSV … to the day of her death
RV …unto the day of her death.

They key is to compare Hebrew to Hebrew (english translations will vary often using different english words within the same bible for the same hebrew word) - this can be done with a reverse interlinear bible. I don’t have one here (at the office), but I’ve read the keating book and heard Tim Staples speak about this - I’m confident that there are many examples where the same Hebrew word translated as “until” in that verse are used in other verses where the context clearly doesn’t mean that the stated event happened thereafter.

In english, it would be like saying, Jesus is with us “until” the end of the age (the Bible actually says this) - this doesn’t imply that Jesus will cease to be with us after the end of the age (we know Jesus will be with us forever in heaven).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[cor5755]

thank you all for the great answers and links to more info.

 

[M0nkey]

It’s really not clear in reading Mt 1:25 what he meant by the word ‘until,’ I suspect since it was a gospel for a Jewish audience, he wanted to prove that it was in fact a valid marriage according to the law. I think that if and when I get to heaven I’m going to sit and have a serious talk with all four evangelist as to why they left out so much precious detail in their writtings.

Regardless, I think St. Jerome has a point: “The mother must go unpurged from her child-bed taint, and the wailing infant be attended to by the midwives, while the husband clasps his exhausted wife. Thus forsooth must their married life begin so that the Evangelist may not be convicted of falsehood. But God forbid that we should think thus of the Saviour’s mother and of a just man. No midwife assisted at His birth; no women’s officiousness intervened. With her own hands she wrapped Him in the swaddling clothes, herself both mother and midwife, Luke 2:7 and laid Him, we are told, in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn; a statement which, on the one hand, refutes the ravings of the apocryphal accounts, for Mary herself wrapped Him in the swaddling clothes, and on the other makes the voluptuous notion of Helvidius impossible, since there was no place suitable for married intercourse in the inn.”

 

[NotWorthy]

It’s really not clear in reading Mt 1:25 what he meant by the word ‘until,’ I suspect since it was a gospel for a Jewish audience, he wanted to prove that it was in fact a valid marriage according to the law. I think that if and when I get to heaven I’m going to sit and have a serious talk with all four evangelist as to why they left out so much precious detail in their writtings.

Matthew wanted his Jewish audience to understand quite clearly that Jesus was the result of a Virgin Birth. This, of course, fulfilled the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14.