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mdleagedguy
Guest
Agreed. But that doesn’t mean the topic is automatically off the table for discussion. Quite frankly I find these sorts of discussions most valuable for making reasoned decisions on things.
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InigoMontoya
Guest
After further contemplating this, I really think I’m in agreement with you.
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mdleagedguy
Guest
But the problem is, nobody actually said here that most must be sinning, or even implied it. It’s a very side-tracked discussion of what may or may not constitute a serious reason for abstaining from marital relations. Not one person said anyone else, or any portion of NFP practitioners was sinning. Not a single one. The closest anyone came was me, when I pointed out the number is not zero. That’s hardly condemning anyone who uses NFP any more than pointing out that a non-zero number of people who drink beer get drunk is a condemnation of beer. I find it interesting that people get offended when no offense was offered or intended, particularly with this particular topic. It’s a valuable discussion to have, so why don’t you guys want people to have this discussion?After further contemplating this, I really think I’m in agreement with you.
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InigoMontoya
Guest
The implications started from the very beginning with outright statements of selfishness and being closed off from God. For the estimated 2% of Catholics who even practice natural family planning, if its not for a severe medical issue.But the problem is, nobody actually said here that most must be sinning, or even implied it. It’s a very side-tracked discussion of what may or may not constitute a serious reason for abstaining from marital relations. Not one person said anyone else, or any portion of NFP practitioners was sinning. Not a single one. The closest anyone came was me, when I pointed out the number is not zero. That’s hardly condemning anyone who uses NFP any more than pointing out that a non-zero number of people who drink beer get drunk is a condemnation of beer. I find it interesting that people get offended when no offense was offered or intended, particularly with this particular topic. It’s a valuable discussion to have, so why don’t you guys want people to have this discussion?
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mdleagedguy
Guest
Then you should read it again. Nobody mentioned anything about NFP being only for a severe medical issue. Not a single post. You are either reading something into it that is not there, or else you are just making stuff up.
The OP quoted something mentioning being closed to God, and to each other as well. This means an attitude of non-acceptance of life. This is something easily remedied by being open to God and one’s spouse. It’s a disposition, and not an action. This is not the same as “being closed off from God”, which means being in the state of mortal sin from one’s actions, and doomed if there is no repentance. You are making the OP sound uncharitable and judgmental. If the OP had said what you say he said, he would be. But the OP didn’t say that. Rather, he discussed an attitude that is assumed in Catholic teaching on birth control and NFP, which is something that we all need to evaluate if we use NFP. It’s not in any way a blanket condemnation of NFP.
My wife and I have determined our fertile times using NFP methods. We decided
to conceive children. It was a beautiful thing. We examined our motives and our state in life, and made a decision, when a few months earlier, it would not have been quite so prudent. Now how are people to make such decisions if, as some here propose, we simply assume any such discussion is motivated by a lack of charity? How? I’ll tell you flat out that if people are afraid to examine it, they run spiritual risks.
Did you know that ecological breastfeeding is a method of NFP? It is God’s way of spacing natural birth’s while bonding with the most recent child. My wife breastfed our children, and she did not ovulate while doing so. If people who want to examine and discuss NFP are so uncharitable as some here would propose, I have to wonder why I didn’t demand my wife stop nursing the child immediately after the first six weeks, when we could resume marital relations.
Come on guys, you’re being ridiculous. You’re being just as ridiculous as the people who say it’s always wrong, in every instance. NFP is certainly a matter that demands serious examination and reflection. That’s not the same as condemning all people who ever use it. It’s not the same as acting like the requirement that there be a serious reason doesn’t exist. It means “serious reason” requires “serious contemplation”.:twocents:
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Walking_Home
Guest
The decision(s) --you and your wife made concerning children --apply to yourselves – and to yourselves only. Couples are not made by cookie cutters – “one size fits all”.
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mdleagedguy
Guest
At no point did I say my circumstances applied to all people. In fact, I pointed out that the myriad of potential situations is great enough that the Church cannot define specific circumstances. I stated in post #17 in this thread that “The Church really can’t define it [circumstances for use of NFP] because there are too many variables.” For some reason did you think that I was applying my own circumstances to all people? If you thought that I was applying my own circumstances, why did you think that? To the contrary, I had indicated otherwise. Do you think that people shouldn’t think seriously about what constitutes a serious reason for the use of NFP?
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fpt
Guest
Each couple has his own reasons to practice the NFP that can be financial, social, medical (physical, mental, physiological, psychological), economical, legal (In China). The couple is morally permitted to use the N.F.P. if and only if the reason or the cumulative reasons are serious, grave or juste (the 3 words are the same meaning, even if some theologians are trying to do a difference, always one part of rigorist thinkers) and are objective and realistic.
By definition and by nature, the N.F.P. is not against the natural moral law of the marriage and of the marital act. This type of birth control is not artificial, it is natural and is not morally wrong, per se, according to the catholic Church. A couple, like that, is open to life because the conception is always possible if God wants. The couple takes the risk, even if this word is not the very good one.
She seems to be in favor of theoretical providentialism in doing the promotion without totally wanting. The dangers in her speech are: pharisaism, externalism, moralism, rigorism, the absolute procreationsim, the judgmentalism (presumptionism of selfishness, the trial of wrong intentions of this couple). The catholic teaching is not like that, it is more moderated, more balanced, more in favor of the liberty of decision of each couple. In addition, she is not a confessor because she is a nun , thus her capacity to understand the soul of each member couple is not very easy, as no experience.** She can not give a general opinion not like that, he seems to me.**
Abusing NFP
by Kathleen van Schaijik
theuniversityconcourse.com/article/1915.html
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InigoMontoya
Guest
“Natural family planning is what God built into us but to be practiced for serious reasons, serious hindrances to having children.”
From reading that statement, in the context it was in, I can only come to the conclusion that anything beyond serious medical illnesses that hinder life would be excluded.
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PaulinVA
Guest
I understand your argument that discussion about reasons to practice NFP - what is serious, what isn’t - is needed. However, every discussion, just by the use of examples, takes a turn toward the direction of grading other people’s reasons.
Take, for instance, a discussion about NFP wherein I state that I think, after prayful reflection with my spouse, that letting the size of our house dictate our family size is not a serious reason. I am, by that statement, implying that people who do let their living situation dictate family size are wrong. I know that I can put disclaimers on it, but the damage is done.
So, perhaps a theoretical discussion of serious reasons is possible, but this thread started out telling couples they were wrong if they save for a house before they have children.
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EasterJoy
Guest
You bring up a good point…that is, that although there is a big difference between saying “we decided this” and “this is the right conclusion for everyone, everywhere”, there are so many people who argue their side as if those are the same thing that it is a ticklish business to even bring it up. I think that putting in disclaimers is the best you can do. Otherwise, the only feedback is coming from the “do as I say or burn” and the “it is your decision and therefore you cannot make a poor decision” camps. IMHO, leaving out the middle gives the extremes too much weight.
That brings up another point, though: That is, that most of the time when I hear people look back over their decisions (whether this or other ones) they don’t always say, “We were wrong, we need to repent” or “I was so wrong, I’ll never get over the guilt”. They say things like, “We saw it that way then, we see it this way now.” There isn’t a need to accuse yourself in order to say “hey, you know, if I had that one to do over, I’d prefer the other route” or “we came close to doing the other, but we’re glad we did this.” This is what you get when you make decisions that are not clear-cut and with limited information.
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PaulinVA
Guest
Well, the thing about evaluating decisions made in the past is that you are evaluating them based on the knowledge and experience your experiences have given you. So, it’s not really useful to kick yourself for decisions that were the best you could make at the time. You know differently now, because we are all supposed to grow, aren’t we?
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twoangels
Guest
I completely agree. The issue is with what translation of Humanae Vitae people are reading.
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The_Bucket
Guest
Precisely on point, as was your previous note that most Catholics don’t abide by the Church’s teaching on birth control… and yet we’re here debating whether a certain use of NFP is sinful! You’d think we Catholics here who are at least trying to follow the Church’s teaching on sexuality would also heed Christ’s words about focusing on our own faults and our own intentions before trying to remove the specks from the eyes of our brothers and sisters.
The Church leaves grave/just/serious reasons up to the individual couple and we as laity and even the clergy are specifically directed to not cast any judgment. Leave it to God. We can point out sins when they are obvious; admonishing the sinner and instructing the ignorant are spiritual works of mercy after all. But even in those cases we are taught never to cast any judgment. In the case of grave/just/serious reasons for using NFP, we simply cannot know the circumstances or thought processes or prayerful reflection that individual couples have undertaken when they arrived at their decisions. So we all need to, respectfully, shut up about it.
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anruari
Guest
Here’s another point to raise:
The use of charting or otherwise observing the fertility cycles of by woman (with or without her husbands active involvement), and the use of that information to make decisions about the spacing of children - i.e. family planning - is not the same thing as putting off having children for years at a time.
The individual decisions to abstain from consummation of the marriage, or to enjoy each-others gift will vary form month to month.
There are also health and other benefits to such an approach.
These techniques are also of enormous benefit to couples with reduced fertility - and our previous pope personally funded research by Creighton University to develop the Creighton Method of NFP to become a diagnostic tool for fertility treatment and then develop a range of treatment options which are in keeping with the churches teachings in on fertility treatments.
For some couples all they need to do is become more aware of and deliberately target their most fertile periods in order to conceive.
So. I’ll draw another line under this
My Example:
My Fiancée and I were told before the Marriage that it would take a miracle to conceive, and our only hope was prayer. the doctor then refused to further discuss fertility options.
We both earnestly wanted to be parents. I had previously received private revelation that I would be a Dad. I know I was devastated, and spent months not knowing whether or not to proceed with the marriage. I chose to proceed with the marriage.This was a leap of faith.
After 18 months of not using any specific methods, my wife and I researched NFP methods and learned to better identify my wifes Fertile periods. We also discovered one pain-killer my wife was using was potentially reducing her fertility.
Within 6 months of deliberately using NFP to maximise our chances of conception, and praying every day (and requesting the intercessions of many others), our first baby was conceived.
Using the same technique our second child was conceived on the second month of deliberately attempting to conceive.
We hope and pray that we can have a third child at the time we have discerned is most appropriate to our family… but if that happens sooner, we are not currently deliberately avoiding that - however my wife’s cycle has not yet re-started as our 8-month old baby is still nursing regularly day and night.
Due to serious medical reasons my wife is advised to give a minimum of 1 year between birth and the next pregnancy. We will be using NFP methods when my wifes cycle returns. As the baby is now over 6 months we are currently in a “Risky” period when the predictability of her cycles return is low.
For us my wife’s fertile days are very much numbered. We are postponing medical procedures which will certainly render her sterile so we can have a family first. Those procedures are to treat a serious, painful underlying medical condition.
We are so grateful for our 2 children. They were both conceived in Love and Prayer.
We recently has a “Scary” few days when my wife thought she might be pregnant again. For us having another child now would be welcome, but scary due to possible health consequences for my wife. - But I think we were both at least partially disappointed when the tests came up negative.
I know this is not everyone’s experience. Some women describe their fertility as “He only needs to smile at me & I fall pregnant”. My experience has nothing to say to that type of situation.
The use of charting or otherwise observing the fertility cycles of by woman (with or without her husbands active involvement), and the use of that information to make decisions about the spacing of children - i.e. family planning - is not the same thing as putting off having children for years at a time.
The individual decisions to abstain from consummation of the marriage, or to enjoy each-others gift will vary form month to month.
There are also health and other benefits to such an approach.
These techniques are also of enormous benefit to couples with reduced fertility - and our previous pope personally funded research by Creighton University to develop the Creighton Method of NFP to become a diagnostic tool for fertility treatment and then develop a range of treatment options which are in keeping with the churches teachings in on fertility treatments.
For some couples all they need to do is become more aware of and deliberately target their most fertile periods in order to conceive.
So. I’ll draw another line under this
- is it possible to sin in ones use within marriage of NFP? - Yes. an example would be to intend to never have children without good reason. Such a mind-set if it was present before the wedding may be enough to nullify the marriage.
- Do the leadership of our Church give guidance on what constitutes good reason? - Categorically NO! They explicitly state that that is a decision that is to be a personal one between their own well informed conscience and the Lord.
My Example:
My Fiancée and I were told before the Marriage that it would take a miracle to conceive, and our only hope was prayer. the doctor then refused to further discuss fertility options.
We both earnestly wanted to be parents. I had previously received private revelation that I would be a Dad. I know I was devastated, and spent months not knowing whether or not to proceed with the marriage. I chose to proceed with the marriage.This was a leap of faith.
After 18 months of not using any specific methods, my wife and I researched NFP methods and learned to better identify my wifes Fertile periods. We also discovered one pain-killer my wife was using was potentially reducing her fertility.
Within 6 months of deliberately using NFP to maximise our chances of conception, and praying every day (and requesting the intercessions of many others), our first baby was conceived.
Using the same technique our second child was conceived on the second month of deliberately attempting to conceive.
We hope and pray that we can have a third child at the time we have discerned is most appropriate to our family… but if that happens sooner, we are not currently deliberately avoiding that - however my wife’s cycle has not yet re-started as our 8-month old baby is still nursing regularly day and night.
Due to serious medical reasons my wife is advised to give a minimum of 1 year between birth and the next pregnancy. We will be using NFP methods when my wifes cycle returns. As the baby is now over 6 months we are currently in a “Risky” period when the predictability of her cycles return is low.
For us my wife’s fertile days are very much numbered. We are postponing medical procedures which will certainly render her sterile so we can have a family first. Those procedures are to treat a serious, painful underlying medical condition.
We are so grateful for our 2 children. They were both conceived in Love and Prayer.
We recently has a “Scary” few days when my wife thought she might be pregnant again. For us having another child now would be welcome, but scary due to possible health consequences for my wife. - But I think we were both at least partially disappointed when the tests came up negative.
I know this is not everyone’s experience. Some women describe their fertility as “He only needs to smile at me & I fall pregnant”. My experience has nothing to say to that type of situation.
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TheWarriorMonk
Guest
Open to life, abstaining, and NFP are all very different things.
One can be married or unmarried and be open to life. One also does not even have to have sex to be open to life, the extreme example being a Josephite marriage.
Abstaining is not sinful; period. The Church does not, and has not, taught that it is sinful; quite the opposite in fact. Married couples can simply agree not to have sex, and there is nothing sinful about it.
The sin can arise when couples have sex solely during the infertile time with intent to avoid children for no good reason. The reason is left up to the couple. If the couple has doubts about their reason, simply speak to the appropriate religious advisor.
IMHO, there is nothing wrong with using NFP for saving for the house. There is nothing wrong with trying to provide the best home for a child, within reason. If saving a year or two means the difference between living in an apartment in a bad neighborhood and living in a small home in a safe one, the couple SHOULD use NFP and save for the home. Stability is essential to the development of the child.
One can be married or unmarried and be open to life. One also does not even have to have sex to be open to life, the extreme example being a Josephite marriage.
Abstaining is not sinful; period. The Church does not, and has not, taught that it is sinful; quite the opposite in fact. Married couples can simply agree not to have sex, and there is nothing sinful about it.
The sin can arise when couples have sex solely during the infertile time with intent to avoid children for no good reason. The reason is left up to the couple. If the couple has doubts about their reason, simply speak to the appropriate religious advisor.
IMHO, there is nothing wrong with using NFP for saving for the house. There is nothing wrong with trying to provide the best home for a child, within reason. If saving a year or two means the difference between living in an apartment in a bad neighborhood and living in a small home in a safe one, the couple SHOULD use NFP and save for the home. Stability is essential to the development of the child.
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mtbender
Guest
Could not disagree more… whenever we are discussing issues that can be subjective such as this I think a respectful, open and honest dialogue can only benefit everyone involved. Bringing differing opinions and perspectives together can only assist one in developing an informed conscious.
Coming from someone who once practiced NFP for the wrong reasons, I can say my conscious would not have changed if it had not been challenged. There are those who cannot handle such a challenge, and I often find they are the ones who need the challenge the most. It can be done without casting judgment…
The benefit of an internet forum is they can walk away from the discussion at any time.
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Walking_Home
Guest
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