Vatican II All Over Again

[Elizabeth502]

…often trying to act way above their pay grade

But that doesn’t stop them from trying, Ora.

For non-Catholics and Catholics alike, the temptation to rationalize evil and personal sin is omnipresent, and those with such a motivation will use any statement from the Holy Father they can to indulge in such rationalizations. We have the evidence of this over the last 2 weeks. After all, it’s from the Pope. He must be telling us that some sins are inconsequential.

(Except that…well… he’s not.)

 

[felsguy]

See post #232 above. Thanks.

Thank you for that. These defintions help me understand better the sense of your posts. I must say though that I have some disagreement with the conclusion the author draws from them but that could be another whole discussion (and I have to finish painting a fence.)

It is used because it is easier than typing “those Catholics who promote and/or tolerate such acts as abortion and gay ‘marriage’.” It also connects it with an ideological motivation (on the part of these Catholics) because that is very often the reason they support such things. Sometimes people support things because they thing, “Gee, this politician guy is kinda nice,” but other times it goes quite a bit further than that.

But you see, had I used your meaning or one of the others suggested here, which you all certainly have every right to use, I would have severely misinterpreted the OP. Kind of like the thrust of this thread now up to 230+ posts.

.

 

[Randy_Carson]

We do not choose to join a ‘camp’. We do not say, “I am a conservative Catholic”, or “I am a liberal Catholic” therefore I will adopt the appropriate standpoints on liturgy, morality, social teaching etc.

It’s the other way around: we HAVE viewpoints on liturgy, morality and social teaching, so we adopt the appropriate labels and join the right camps. For example,

• There is a meeting at the parish to discuss opening a soup kitchen. Some people feel a call to social justice issues and decide to attend.
• There is an announcement about the Knights of Columbus holding a BBQ to fund the Boy Scout troop, and a different group of guys show up.
• The monthly protest at the local abortion clinic will be held this Saturday. Bring your rosaries. And another group forms itself.

This is how we consciously or unconsciously divide ourselves into the groupings that can be labeled as conservative Catholics or liberal Catholics or social justice Catholics or feminist Catholics or Gay Pride Catholics, etc.

We express our faith in very different ways, and we may not always agree with one another or even get along very well, but we’re united by a common faith and our unity with the Bishops and the Holy Father.

 

[ProVobis]

We have an enemy. He was a liar from the beginning.

And he has entered our computers.

They don’t call them “daemons” for nothing in the Linux/Unix operating system.

 

[Elizabeth502]

And he has entered our computers.

 

[Lormar]

And he has entered our computers.

They don’t call them “daemons” for nothing in the Linux/Unix operating system.

He has his minions registered on Catholic forums too. From the looks of how things are going on these Catholic forums, their numbers must be legion.

 

[Brendan_64]

But that is what very often happens, in fact, whether or not it should. These terms are not prescriptive of what shall henceforth be true, they are descriptive of what has–at least up to now, now being relative–occurred.

Thankfully it doesn’t apply in most cases. If someone bases their views on liturgy, morality, social teaching etc. on whether or not they consider themselves to be a ‘conservative’ Catholic or a ‘liberal Catholic’ then that really is approaching their Faith from the wrong way round, and I would argue that that approach represents a lack of Faith and an approach that makes one’s Faith subservient to secular politics.

If I look at myself, and applied such labels (and I’m a pretty average Catholic) I would be ‘conservative’ in terms of my views on morality, ‘liberal’ in terms of social policy, and ‘middle of the road’ in terms of liturgy (although my parish priest would view me as ‘conservative’ in terms of liturgy). So what am I? Am I a ‘liberal’ Catholic, or am I a ‘conservative’ Catholic?

In terms of secular politics I am certainly ‘left-wing’ (and that is by European standards), but this label cannot, and should not be applied to my Faith, which is far more important to me than my secular political views.

We are all Catholics, we should not place ourselves (and others) into invented quasi-political camps within our Church. Yes we may have differences of opinion, but so long as what we believe does not contradict Church teaching, it ought not to matter that much.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If I look at myself, and applied such labels (and I’m a pretty average Catholic) I would be ‘conservative’ in terms of my views on morality, ‘liberal’ in terms of social policy, and ‘middle of the road’ in terms of liturgy (although my parish priest would view me as ‘conservative’ in terms of liturgy). So what am I? Am I a ‘liberal’ Catholic, or am I a ‘conservative’ Catholic?

Gee, you sound pretty well-rounded to me.

 

[Brendan_64]

Gee, you sound pretty well-rounded to me.

Thanks. But am I a well-rounded ‘liberal’ Catholic, or a well-rounded ‘conservative’ Catholic?

 

[YoungTradCath]

Thanks. But am I a well-rounded ‘liberal’ Catholic, or a well-rounded ‘conservative’ Catholic?

I think “liberal” Catholics would consider you more conservative than “conservative” Catholics would consider you liberal.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Thankfully it doesn’t apply in most cases. If someone bases their views on liturgy, morality, social teaching etc. on whether or not they consider themselves to be a ‘conservative’ Catholic or a ‘liberal Catholic’ then that really is approaching their Faith from the wrong way round, and I would argue that that approach represents a lack of Faith and an approach that makes one’s Faith subservient to secular politics.

But that usually isn’t what happens. Usually, people have a strong conviction about the correctness and inviolability of Church teaching or a strong conviction that Church teaching is “wrong” for whatever reason and can and should “change” (without, of course, realizing that they have defeated the purpose of faith to begin with in insisting, usually quite militantly, on this). Generally, but not always,other things are associated with one’s views on Church teaching: liturgy etc. Then, using this as a basis, people who engage in conversations, as in here, apply words to describe this phenomenon.

That is all this is, an aid in conversation. It does not make something exist, it simply recognizes what already exists.

 

[Brendan_64]

I think “liberal” Catholics would consider you more conservative than “conservative” Catholics would consider you liberal.

And that’s just it. The labels mean nothing other than a comparison to the individual view of the person making the comparison, and that again will depend on what the person making the comparison views the most important issue(s) are upon which they make the comparison to their own views on that issue.

A meaningless label.

 

[OraLabora]

It’s the other way around: we HAVE viewpoints on liturgy, morality and social teaching, so we adopt the appropriate labels and join the right camps. For example,

• There is a meeting at the parish to discuss opening a soup kitchen. Some people feel a call to social justice issues and decide to attend.
• There is an announcement about the Knights of Columbus holding a BBQ to fund the Boy Scout troop, and a different group of guys show up.
• The monthly protest at the local abortion clinic will be held this Saturday. Bring your rosaries. And another group forms itself.

This is how we consciously or unconsciously divide ourselves into the groupings that can be labeled as conservative Catholics or liberal Catholics or social justice Catholics or feminist Catholics or Gay Pride Catholics, etc.

We express our faith in very different ways, and we may not always agree with one another or even get along very well, but we’re united by a common faith and our unity with the Bishops and the Holy Father.

These though, are mostly charisms. This is normal and natural in the faith and consistent with scripture and the concept of the Body of Christ as a body with members who hold different functions. It is one of the reason for the many religious orders and congregations in Catholicism.

While there may be disagreements and differences among the charisms, I don’t think anybody suggests that, say, a Benedictine is any less a Catholic than a Franciscan (although one might get into a discussion about who best represents the tradition of St. Benedict: Benedictines, Cistercians of the Common Observance, and Cistercians of the Strict Observance). There is nothing wrong with “labeling” someone as a Benedictine or Franciscan or whatever. It defines his attachment to a specific charism in the the Church.

The issue with “liberal” and “conservative”, it is often used to divide and exclude, and somehow disparage the faithfulness of the person in the opposite camp.

We express our faith in very different ways, and we may not always agree with one another or even get along very well, but we’re united by a common faith and our unity with the Bishops and the Holy Father.

This is a vitally important point. There’s another threat talking about excluding from parish life those who don’t fit into the mold for Catholicism that we imagine they should, and punishing them by excluding them.

 

[pnewton]

Originally Posted by pnewton

That explains the success of Microsoft.