Vatican II and Pauline Mass Question

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Hello all,

Since many of the innovations in the new Mass (e.g. altar facing the people, communion in hand, Mass entirely in vernacular, etc) were not laid out in the documents of Vatican II, where did they originate? Additionally, since Ecumenical councils are binding to believers (I realize that there is an entirely different thread out there on this) - what about the documents that created this new Mass? To me, it seems that if the new Mass were celebrated according to the intent of Vatican II, it would be in Latin, ad orientam, without communion in-hand, etc.

One final comment … I compared the First Eucharistic prayer in to the TLM and guess what … they are almost identical in Latin (there is a small difference in the prayers of consecration). I guess that if the ICEL had kept the original English translation instead of creating the hatchet job that they did on the current, there might be less of an outrage. That in itself is reason to keep the Latin.
 
RomanRevert said:
Hello all,

Since many of the innovations in the new Mass (e.g. altar facing the people, communion in hand, Mass entirely in vernacular, etc) were not laid out in the documents of Vatican II, where did they originate? Additionally, since Ecumenical councils are binding to believers (I realize that there is an entirely different thread out there on this) - what about the documents that created this new Mass? To me, it seems that if the new Mass were celebrated according to the intent of Vatican II, it would be in Latin, ad orientam, without communion in-hand, etc.
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Many of these orginated in the decades prior to the Council. As early as the 1940s there were “experimental” Masses where the Altar would face the people, or certain parts of the Mass would be in vernacular. These were not, for the most part, officialy sanctioned, and in several cases originated with schismatic groups (there was one in the 1930s, cannot recall the name offhand, in Austria that used a versus populum Altar). However, many of these practices have their roots in Protestantism.

Remember also that Vatican II, in Sacrosanctum Concilium, never even called for a new Missal to be created. Vernacular was to be optional for certain parts of the Mass (such as the Readings or Proper prayers pertinent to the congregation, but never the Ordinary of the Mass)- Latin is still the ordinary language of the Novus Ordo Mass, while vernacular is extraordinary. As for Altars facing the people- there was no mention of a versus populum Altar until it appeared in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal in the year 2000- even so, it is only mentioned as an option.
One final comment … I compared the First Eucharistic prayer in to the TLM and guess what … they are almost identical in Latin (there is a small difference in the prayers of consecration). I guess that if the ICEL had kept the original English translation instead of creating the hatchet job that they did on the current, there might be less of an outrage. That in itself is reason to keep the Latin.
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The First Eucharistic Prayer in the Novus Ordo is the Roman Canon of St. Gregory the Great, the sole Canon of the Traditional Mass.
 
Yes, true. What I want to know is, what is the the Novus Ordo celebrated “without abuses”, or “done properly”? I constantly hear these two phrases. But what do they mean? My point: what many claim are “abuses” are not. They are just the Novus:eek: Ordo.
 
RomanRevert said:
Hello all,

Since many of the innovations in the new Mass (e.g. altar facing the people, communion in hand, Mass entirely in vernacular, etc) were not laid out in the documents of Vatican II, where did they originate? Additionally, since Ecumenical councils are binding to believers (I realize that there is an entirely different thread out there on this) - what about the documents that created this new Mass? To me, it seems that if the new Mass were celebrated according to the intent of Vatican II, it would be in Latin, ad orientam, without communion in-hand, etc.

One final comment … I compared the First Eucharistic prayer in to the TLM and guess what … they are almost identical in Latin (there is a small difference in the prayers of consecration). I guess that if the ICEL had kept the original English translation instead of creating the hatchet job that they did on the current, there might be less of an outrage. That in itself is reason to keep the Latin.
Click to expand...
Some of them originated in 1964 in this document.Inter oecumenici

adoremus.org/Interoecumenici.html

II. MAIN ALTAR
  1. The main altar should preferably be freestanding, **to permit walking around it and celebration facing the people. **Its location in the place of worship should be truly central so that the attention of the whole congregation naturally focuses there.
    Choice of materials for the construction and adornment of the altar is to respect the prescriptions of law.
    The sanctuary area is to be spacious enough to accommodate the sacred rites.
i. The formulary for distributing holy communion is to be, Corpus Christi. As he says these words, the celebrant holds the host slightly above the ciborium and shows it to the communicant, who responds: Amen, then receives communion from the celebrant, the sign of the cross with the host being omitted.

j. The last gospel is omitted; the Leonine Prayers are suppressed.

V. PART ALLOWED THE VERNACULAR IN MASS (SC art. 54)
57. For Masses, whether sung or recited, celebrated with a congregation, the competent, territorial ecclesiastical authority on approval, that is, confirmation, of its decisions by the Holy See, may introduce the vernacular into:

a. the proclaiming of the lessons, epistle, and gospel; the universal prayer or prayer of the faithful;

b. as befits the circumstances of the place, the chants of the Ordinary of the Mass, namely, the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus-Benedictus, Agnus Dei, as well as the introit, offertory, and communion antiphons and the chants between the readings;

c. acclamations, greeting, and dialogue formularies, the Ecce Agnus Dei, Domine, non sum dignus, Corpus Christi at the communion of the faithful, and the Lord’s Prayer with its introduction and embolism.
 
Since many of the innovations in the new Mass (e.g. altar facing the people, communion in hand, Mass entirely in vernacular, etc)
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Not to be too technical but I don’t really think any of these things can be classified as innovations unless you’re going to say say that something old is new again. Also, I don’t think I’ve ever attended a Mass that was entirely in the vernacular - vast majority or almost all but not all.🤷
 
stmaria said:
Some of them originated in 1964 in this document.Inter oecumenici

adoremus.org/Interoecumenici.html

II. MAIN ALTAR
  1. The main altar should preferably be freestanding, **to permit walking around it and celebration facing the people. **Its location in the place of worship should be truly central so that the attention of the whole congregation naturally focuses there.
    Choice of materials for the construction and adornment of the altar is to respect the prescriptions of law.
    The sanctuary area is to be spacious enough to accommodate the sacred rites.
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Maybe that can be stretched a little earlier? to the 1957 Commentary on Eucharistiam Sanctissimam which led to additional altars being placed in front of High Altars and 1956 where Pius XII said “experts will offer various opinions for solving the problem of placing the tabernacle on the altar so as not to impede the celebration of Mass when the priest is facing the congregation”
 
AJV said:
Maybe that can be stretched a little earlier? to the 1957 Commentary on Eucharistiam Sanctissimam which led to additional altars being placed in front of High Altars and 1956 where Pius XII said “experts will offer various opinions for solving the problem of placing the tabernacle on the altar so as not to impede the celebration of Mass when the priest is facing the congregation”
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Was this ever done? Was there a Mass lawfully celebrated facing the people in the TLM or was it done for the first time in the Novus Ordo?

adoremus.org/Interoecumenici.html#anchor36495058

VI. RESERVATION OF THE EUCHARIST
  1. The eucharist is to be reserved in a solid and secure tabernacle, placed in the middle of the main altar or on a minor, but truly worthy altar, or, in accord with lawful custom and in particular cases approved by the local Ordinary, also in another, special, and properly adorned part of the church.
**It is lawful to celebrate Mass facing the people **even on an altar where there is a small but becoming tabernacle.
 
stmaria said:
Was this ever done? Was there a Mass lawfully celebrated facing the people in the TLM or was it done for the first time in the Novus Ordo?

adoremus.org/Interoecumenici.html#anchor36495058

VI. RESERVATION OF THE EUCHARIST
  1. The eucharist is to be reserved in a solid and secure tabernacle, placed in the middle of the main altar or on a minor, but truly worthy altar, or, in accord with lawful custom and in particular cases approved by the local Ordinary, also in another, special, and properly adorned part of the church.
**It is lawful to celebrate Mass facing the people **even on an altar where there is a small but becoming tabernacle.
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Considering that Cardinal Ottaviani himself celebrated versus populum, I think it was lawful. And certainly the rubrics provide directions for cases when it is. Sancta Missa has the Ritus- check out number V, iii and XII, ii for two such examples (these 2 rubrics are the same in the 1962 and previous editions of the missal. They are not among those altered)
 
Sorry, I don’t wish to turn away from the original question, but did anyone hear about how the Latin Mass was returning? They say it is sweeping through the U.S.
 
bear06 said:
Not to be too technical but I don’t really think any of these things can be classified as innovations unless you’re going to say say that something old is new again. Also, I don’t think **I’ve ever attended a Mass that was entirely in the vernacular **- vast majority or almost all but not all.🤷
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Really? That is all I had ever experienced until about two years ago…other than “gloria in egg-shells see day-o” during Christmas time.
 
rlg94086 said:
Really? That is all I had ever experienced until about two years ago…other than “gloria in egg-shells see day-o” during Christmas time.
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Really? No Alleluia or Amen? That would be pretty bad. :eek:
 
rlg94086 said:
Ohhh…okay, you are correct, I only attended 99.9% vernacular Masses…thanks for pointing out that important distinction. :cool:
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So true. Thankfully, in my diocese, more of the Latin (and Greek) is showing up! Whoo hoo!
 
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