Vatican II as interpreted by SSPX

[Ottaviani]

Actually, I did not say, nor did the Council say, that Christ is rooted in the Church. It is the Church that is rooted in Christ. It is the Catholic Church the only Church that is fully rooted in Christ. That’s why the fullness of truth subsists within the Catholic Church. Because Christ is the fullness of truth.

As to others who are not Catholic. The Church has stated that certain Catholic truths are found in other faiths and other groups. If they are Catholic truths, even if they are found outside the Church, they remain Catholic truths and Christ uses those truths to bring those people to salvation, provided that they live by those truths.

In that sense, there is no salvation outside the Church, becaue any truth found outside the Church is really a truth that belongs to the Church. Any truth through which Christ’s grace saves, is a Cathollic truth. Therefore, Christ saves through the Church, even those who are imperfectly united to the Church.

We end up at the same place. Salvation can only come through the Church, even to those outside the physical Church. The doctrine is not touched or changed. Its complexity is exlained, that’s all.

JR

Agreed.

however, Lumen Gentium said that Christ subsists in the Catholic Church, as opposed to “the fullness of truth”

I have no problem with the possibility of finding truth (collateral truth) outside of the Catholic Church. Christ however, No.

 

[japhy]

I have no problem with the possibility of finding truth (collateral truth) outside of the Catholic Church. Christ however, No.

Isn’t Christ operating outside the Church when someone is baptized in a non-Catholic Church? Is Christ found in the Eucharist offered by the Orthodox Churches or not?

 

[Our_Refuge]

Agreed.

however, Lumen Gentium said that Christ subsists in the Catholic Church, as opposed to “the fullness of truth”

I have no problem with the possibility of finding truth (collateral truth) outside of the Catholic Church. Christ however, No.

It seems to me that the Baltimore Catechism of 1891 is saying the same thing. It does not use word “subsists” in but the meaning is the same.

Baltimore Catechism of 1891

1. Q. Are all bound to belong to the Church?
   A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.
   Anyone who knows the Catholic religion to be the true religion and will not embrace it cannot enter into Heaven. If one not a Catholic doubts whether the church to which he belongs is the true Church, he must settle his doubt, seek the true Church, and enter it; for if he continues to live in doubt, he becomes like the one who knows the true Church and is deterred by worldly considerations from entering it.
   In like manner one who, doubting, fears to examine the religion he professes lest he should discover its falsity and be convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith, cannot be saved.
   Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never—even in the past—had the slightest doubt of that fact—what will become of him?
   If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his minister—not being a true priest—has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act? What we call contrition is often only imperfect contrition—that is, sorrow for our sins because we fear their punishment in Hell or dread the loss of Heaven. If a Catholic—with all the instruction he has received about how to make an act of perfect contrition and all the practice he has had in making such acts—might find it difficult to make an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, how much difficulty will not a Protestant have in making an act of perfect contrition, who does not know about this requirement and who has not been taught to make continued acts of perfect contrition all his life. It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of GodIf, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, **he is a member **of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.
   I am giving you an example, however, that is rarely found, except in the case of infants or very small children baptized in Protestant sects. All infants rightly baptized by anyone are really children of the Church, no matter what religion their parents may profess. Indeed, all persons who are baptized are children of the Church; but those among them who deny its teaching, reject its Sacraments, and refuse to submit to its lawful pastors, are rebellious children known as heretics.
   I said I gave you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, receiving its Sacraments, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult matter.”

 

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Now! The Baltimore Catechism is so, refreshing! It might be from the 1800’s but did you smell the simplicity, and the exactness of the language? Did you notice how unambiguous it is?

The sweet smell of the truth. Innit good!