Vatican II - the beginning of the end?

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This will be somewhat off the topic, but not entirely.

Regarding sexual abuse by priests. Has this phenomenon existed to the same degree or for that matter at all, prior to Vat. II?

I’d be interested to know if the 40 yrs prior to Vat. II show that this wasn’t a problem on the scale we know it to be or at all for that matter in the 40 yrs after Vat. II.

On another note. I’m fairly new to the Catholic faith, born Catholic, but never practiced or believed till God guided me home. I wouldn’t say I’m unnerved by all this talk, of the which I honestly don’t have the knowledge fully grasp what’s being discussed. But because of my previous experiences with the different churches I was a part of and experiencing all the madness I endured has thought me important lessons. And basically that is, that what the scripture says in Proverbs 14:15, “The innocent believeth every word: the discreet man considereth his steps.”

Nelson
 
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Della:
No, the Church never says that any apparition of Our Lady WAS Our Lady, even if popes, bishops and priests use the coloquial expression “Our Lady said when she appeared at Fatima…” when discussing the message of an apparition. What the Church rules is that a particular apparition and its messages are “worthy of belief”, not “must be believed because Our Lady actually appeared and said thus and so.”
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Hmmm, are you sure? :hmmm:

It seems contradictory to me in the least that the church would bother proving that an apparition was authentic on the sole basis that it was referring to the congruence of the message brought forth from the apparition with Catholic doctrine. I’d go further and suggest that the reason for determining the authenticity of any apparition is to reveal whether or not our Lady was indeed present there. Why does the Church spend so long in determining whether or not an apparition is authentic or not? Merely to affirm the messages’ are in line with Catholic teaching?

If indeed the Church has deemed the messages worthy of belief then it has noted formally that the messages were from Our Lady. You see to claim that something can be seen as “worthy of belief” and yet claim that Our Lady was not necessarily present for the claim to be made is totally contradictory. If she was there then her message was straight from heaven and should be obeyed, just as all the popes have affirmed in their attempts to consecrate Russia.
 
Bring back latin, push back the altar, kneeling for communion and for God’s sake bring ban receiving communion in the hand unless you’re a clergyman!
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I’m personally glad that there are English masses. I like Latin, but having been to both Latin and English masses, I’m so much more focused when I don’t have to follow a book or think in another language. Granted, I’m sure Vatican II was not done with ME in mind. But I think that it’s helpful for some to have the English and helpful for others to have the Latin. 👍
 
This is my favorite mass because it uses word pictures, so I don’t even have to remember vernacular!
And there’s no crucifix to block my line of sight…
The kids love it too since they think it’s Sesame Street “live”
You just couldn’t get away with this kind of innovation in a TLM. TLM leaves nothing to the imagination of the celebrant…very rubrically rigid…

And diversity of expression…that’s worth a lot right there:

If you must have a crucifix, then we have the human female crucifix:
 
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MariaGorettiGrl:
I’m personally glad that there are English masses. I like Latin, but having been to both Latin and English masses, I’m so much more focused when I don’t have to follow a book or think in another language. Granted, I’m sure Vatican II was not done with ME in mind. But I think that it’s helpful for some to have the English and helpful for others to have the Latin. 👍
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Just curious. Did Maria Goretti attend Italian or Latin Masses? Did she make sainthood by heroic virtue from assisting at the New Mass or the TLM? Communion on the tongue or in the hand? Kneeling for communion or standing up. Receiving from a lay female minister or a priest? A priest facing the tabernacle or the people? wearing a veil or not? Wearing a dress or slacks? Communion rail in place separating the sanctuary or none at all? Absorbed in sacrificial contemplation or passing out peace kisses, handshakes and hugs?

http://www.stalphonsusbalt.org/altarStA1-2.jpg
If she could stand beside you at your church would she KNOW it was Roman Rite Catholic?
How would she know, for sure? That it wasn’t Methodist, Anglican or Lutheran?
 
Your links dont work TNT.

But that picture on your second post is breath taking.

Let us pray for Benedict XVI that he will restore the Church!

Amen!

In Christ.

Andre.
 
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Magicsilence:
Your links dont work TNT.

But that picture on your second post is breath taking.

Let us pray for Benedict XVI that he will restore the Church!

Amen!

In Christ.

Andre.
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They work for me. But try here
They’re all in one place.

The second post photo came from here.
Click on the “Our Church Tour” on the left.
Loading both sites tells you something might be VERY incongruous.
 
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TNT:
Just curious. Did Maria Goretti attend Italian or Latin Masses? Did she make sainthood by heroic virtue from assisting at the New Mass or the TLM? Communion on the tongue or in the hand? Kneeling for communion or standing up. Receiving from a lay female minister or a priest? A priest facing the tabernacle or the people? wearing a veil or not? Wearing a dress or slacks? Communion rail in place separating the sanctuary or none at all? Absorbed in sacrificial contemplation or passing out peace kisses, handshakes and hugs?

http://www.stalphonsusbalt.org/altarStA1-2.jpg
If she could stand beside you at your church would she KNOW it was Roman Rite Catholic?
How would she know, for sure? That it wasn’t Methodist, Anglican or Lutheran?
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TNT,

I am going to make you jealous. I am honored to be able to serve Mass at a beautiful Church with an altar that looks almost identical to the one in that incredible picture.

“Introibo ad altare dei”
 
End-Times? Well, yes, the “end-times” commenced with the birth of the Church, and so - then was the “beginning of the end”!

Here follows a Summary of some of the writings of Desmond Birch, Mariologist, Eschatologist, Author of “Trial, Tribulation & Triumph”
A long list of Canonized Saints, Blessed, and Venerable have stated that the period of turmoil we are living through with be followed by an Age of Peace - and that that ‘Peace’ will precede the rise of the Antichrist.

Those Church approved Catholic Prophets are very very specific about the chain of events which will precede the rise of the Antichrist. They all say that the Age of Peace comes before the Antichrist.

The Church has always taught that until the entire world is evangelized - and a following worldwide apostasy takes place - the antichrist cannot come. Read St. Paul. He had to write to one of the early Churches telling them about these things - because they were going off the rails thinking that Antichrist had already arrived. Read St. Paul. The more it changes, the more it stays the same. We have been given signs as to what must precede the Antichrist. And they have not yet been fulfilled.

I also sense (as put it so well) a ‘new grace afoot’.

In my experience, those who do not sense the ‘new grace’ are immersing themselves only in bad news - and will even on occasion violently resist and reject any good news. When that happens it usually emanates from a kind of spiritual ‘death wish’.

Those who fully accept the Christian Virtue of “Hope” (on an equal footing with those of “Faith” and “Charity” do not suffer from that particular problem.

St. Faustina tells us that Our Lord told us to concentrate on His Divine Mercy at this time in salvation history.

That is good direction and advice.

The Antichrist cannot already be here for the following reasons:

All the Fathers and Doctors of the Church who have written on the Antichrist state the following:
  1. The Gospel will first have to have been preached to all nations/peoples in world. That hasn’t happened yet.
a. If you will read the Holy Father’s Encyclical ‘Redemptoris Missio’ - he specifically states that the Evangelical work of the Church is “far from over” and “only just beginning”.

b. John Paul II states in ‘Ecclesia in Asia’ - that it is ironic that on the very continent in which Christ began his mission - that Continent has not yet been evangelized except in scattered parts of that Continent - and Asia holds 2.3 of the worlds people.

c. The Holy Father further states in ‘Ecclesia in Asia’ that he “sees” Asia finally being evangelized in the Third Millennium.

d. The Holy Father and the Prefect of the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples have also both stated that “East Africa” has virtually never been evangelized at all. The reason for that is that the Moslems got there before Christianity - and have martyred Christian Missionaries ever since - almost as fast as they arrive there.

continued:
 
  1. The worldwide ‘Apostacy’ which St. Paul speaks of has not happened yet. Apostacy and heresy are not the same thing. Apostacy is a total renunciation of their Christina Faith by a baptized Christian. Far from the happening, in large parts of the world the Church is growing faster than ever before in history. Africa is a case in point, and so is Asia.

    These are just a couple of things which we know from Scripture and Tradition must precede that arrival of the Antichrist. No - the Antichrist is not here - and he won’t be coming till after the entire world has been evangelized - and then after that - the apostacy occurs.

    According to literally dozens of Canonized Saints, Blessed and Venerable (who are prophets who enjoy Church-approval - the era we are living through now is going to come to an abrupt end (attempts at World Govt., etc.) and the Age of Peace will ensue. After that Age of Peace - they all state that then and only then does the Antichrist make his appearance.

    Now - that is looking at things from the perspective of ‘private prophecy’ from many dozens of Saints, Blessed, and Venerable and other Church-approved prophets.

    From the perspective of Public Revelation - we are told and the Church teaches that first the Gospel must be preached to all the nations/peoples. The Holy Father and Church History teach us this has not yet occurred - not even close.

    After the World has been totally evangelized - which the Holy Father has repeatedly stated will occur sometime in the Third Millennium - then we have to go through the Apostacy - which St. Paul teaches us the faithful must precede the coming of the Antichrist.

    As to your last question - I deal with the attraction of believing the Antichrist is coming at any time at length in ‘Trial, Tribulation & Triumph’ (TTT). If you have not read it - you will find a full discussion of this subject in there. Every single century has had false deluded ‘alleged’ prophets claiming they were told the Antichrist is either already here - or is about to come.

    In every century, there have been people wildly enamored of listening to their false prophecy - for reasons I discuss in depth in TTT.

    BTW, I discussed in TTT the fact that there were current prophets claiming the Antichrist would make his actual appearance by the year 2000 - or by the year 1998. I was the only author to write a major book on the subject who came right out and said that could not possibly be so. I put my reputation on the line by stating that.

    How did I know??? Because the signs given in Scripture and Tradition and found in the writing of the Fathers of the Church from the Apostolic Tradition clearly delineate certain events which must precede that Antichrist. I knew all those thing could not happen in the five years between 1995 (when I was writing that part of TTT) and the year 2000. It was a no-brainer.
Has anyone noticed a mass conversion of the Jews lately? Or of the whereabouts of Enoch and Elijah? I think the time to start quivering in fear (if we are in a state of sin) is when these things come to pass. In the meantime, watch and pray.
 
USMC wrote:
What are your thoughts on post # 31?
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I knew Yves DuPont personally - having “returned” to the Latin Mass in c. 1973 with my family. At that time, Yves was heavily into Prophecy and all sorts of “Apparitions” - many of them being entirely spurious.

The following is an exchange between myself and … … - noted Marianist, Eschatologist and author:

From: “seanol2001” <jloughnan@h…>
Date: Sat Jun 29, 2002 5:45 pm
Subject: Yves Dupont and his “Catholic Prophecy”

Dear List,

Does anyone have an opinion on the integrity or reliability of Yves Dupont in relation to his booklet, “Catholic Prophecy”?

With many thanks,

John Loughnan
From: “…” <…@e…>
Date: Sun Jun 30, 2002 12:21 am
Subject: Re: [Mother of God] Yves Dupont and his “Catholic Prophecy”

Dear John,

I normally do not like to address this question - due to my general respect for Yves (whom I knew).

A very large section of that book is comprised of the alleged ‘prophecies’ of Nostradamus. A number of people advised Yves that he should not include anything from Nostradamus in “Catholic Prophecy”.

Not to put too fine a point on it, Nostradamus was a charlatan and a flake. Amongst other ludicrous practices and ideas, he claimed to be able to tell the future of his wealthy clients by reading the ‘moles’ on their skin. Nostradamus book of prophecies was condemned by Rome centuries ago.

Yves would have none of it. He has spent years poring over the quatrains of Nostradamus. He thought the Church was wrong (virtually says so) and therefore did a great disservice to the Church and the Faith by publishing Nostradamus phony prophecies in an allegedly Catholic book.

That was a great tragedy, because Yves’ studies could have added much to the general understanding of private revelation. By violating that ruling by the Church, he did himself a great disservice.

Desmond
June 30, 2002

Dear Desmond,

Many thanks for your response; yes, I knew of his penchant for Nostradamus. It was a silliness - but, perhaps indicative of a certain mindset?

In fact, my first “reunion” with the Tridentine Latin Mass in 1973 was in the home of Yves at Hawthorn, Melbourne, Australia. He had a very small chapel set up in his home, and Fr. Augustine Cummins, C.SS.R., would regularly celebrate Mass there for some 30 - 40 folk - including my family and the family of Gordon Bateman. In the fullness of time, Gordon would become Gordon “Cardinal” Bateman, Papal Secretary to “Pope Pius XIII.” Incidently, Gordon appears to have had a rift with Fr. Lucien Pulvermacher, O.F.M. a.k.a. Pope Pius XIII, and is now trying to rally the various sedevacantists into a cohesive group - apparently to organize a conclave. Gordon appears to have reverted to the title “Mr”.
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continued
 
No, Desmond, there is an even more serious reason for asking whether others knew of any other reason for querying his integrity: I have just discovered that there is an alleged quote in his “Catholic Prophecy” - a quote which is attributed to “The Life of Anne Catherine Emmerich by Rev. Carl E. Schmoeger, C.SS.R.”

" ‘I saw again the new and odd-looking Church which they were trying to build. There was nothing holy about it… People were kneading bread in the crypt below… but it would not rise, nor did they receive the body of Our Lord, but only bread. Those who were in error, through no fault of their own, and who piously and ardently longed for the Body of Jesus were spiritually consoled, but not by their communion. Then my Guide [Jesus] said: ‘THIS IS BABEL.’ [The Mass in many languages].’ Recorded in the Life of Anne Catherine Emmerich by Rev. Carl E. Schmoeger, C.SS.R."

The problem includes, but is not limited to, the fact that the above quoted paragraph is an interpolation and splicing of four separate, but not contiguous, passages from Volume II of “The Life of Anne Catherine Emmerich.” (Pages 283, 85, 282, 132.)

Now, I do not have a copy of either “Catholic Prophecy” nor “The Life of Anne Catherine Emmerich”, but hope to put my hands on them tomorrow to verify the above. That done, I will put a file up on my site in due course.

So, it appears (but is still to be verified) that Yves Dupont falsified passages from a book on Anna Katherina Emmerick - whose meditations can ONLY be considered to be the “meditations” of a very pious nun who became entitled to the title “Venerable” only as from April 24, 2001 - descriptions of her prior to that date as “Venerable” and/or “Blessed” notwithstanding!

With kind regards and God bless,

John Loughnan
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Despite his penchant for “prophecy” - he was not able to predict that his very heavy smoking habit would lead to him contracting lung cancer and dying therefrom.

I hope that this helps,
 
I think a lot of people who get too into prohecy fall into the error of sensationalism. Or, possibly, sensationalism is what causes them to devote so much time to studying prophecy.

But I tend to agree with his conclusion that there will be a prelude (or foreshaddowing) to the days of antichrist, folllowed by the period of peace promised at Fatima, before the actual days of antichrist arrive.

I personally believe we are near the end of the “prelude”. We may still have 10 years or so, but I think we are nearing the end of this mess.

The other book I mentioned in post 31 is called The Prophets and Our Times, by Rev. R. Gerals Culleton. The date of the imprimatur and hihil obstat is 1941. Many of the prophecies Mr. Dupont used are also found in that book. In addition the book has many more prophecies that confirm precisely what the other do.

One thing to look for, according to both books, is for a “Great Monarch” to will arrise in France. Just as the start of the mess the Church is in today began in France with the French Revolution, so too the beginning of the restoration will begin in France with the Great Monarch. There are many very specific prophecies about this Monarch.

Holzhauser (AD1658): "When everything has been ruined by war: when Catholics are hard pressed by traitorous co-religionists [ecuminists] and heretics: when the Church and her servants are denied their rights, the monarchies have been abolished and their rulers murdered… then the Hand of Almighty God will work a marvelous change, something seemingly impossible according to human understanding. There will rise a monarch anointed by God. He will be a Catholic, a descendant of Louis IX, (yet) a dscendant of an ancient imperial German family, born in exile. He will rule supreme in temporal matters. The Pope will rule supreme in spiritual matters at the same time…

"He will root out false doctrine and destroy the rule of Moslemism. His dominion will extend from the East to the West. All nations will adore God their Lord according to Catholic teaching. There will be many wise and just men. The people will love justice, and peace will reign over the whole earth, for divine power will bind Satan for many years until the coming of the Son of Perdition (Anti-Christ).
 
USMC wrote:
The other book I mentioned in post 31 is called The Prophets and Our Times, by Rev. R. Gerals Culleton. The date of the imprimatur and hihil obstat is 1941. Many of the prophecies Mr. Dupont used are also found in that book. In addition the book has many more prophecies that confirm precisely what the other do.
  1. One of the first things that I would do is to re-examine Fr. Culleton’s book to see who, precisely, he was quoting/promoting! If, for example, he was quoting (then) Sr. Anna Katharina Emmerick - then I would be immediately “on-guard” - for she actually wrote nothing. Furthermore, she attained the rank of Blessed in spite of her alleged writings.
Once I possessed Fr. Culleton’s book, but rid myself of it. The Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat is NO guarantee of authenticity of any part of his book. It simply means that a Catholic authority has indicated that there is nothing contrary to the Faith in it, and it may be published. Remember that the Bishop of Lecce Imprimatured the (actual) writings of the La Salette seer, Melaine Calvat - but the Holy Office later declared them to be verboten, and later again, writings of the “Secret of La Salette” were placed on the Index of Forbidden Books from which they were never withdrawn.
  1. These are the teachings of the Catholic Church on the End Times that must be believed by all the Faithful.
The Resurrection of the Dead. The teachings of the Catholic Church teach the actual resurrection of all flesh in their own bodies (including the damned), not merely a spiritual resurrection. This teaching is affirmed in both the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed.

The General Judgment. After the resurrection of all flesh, there will follow the universal judgment. Christ will sit upon the throne of judgment and render to each man according to his works (Matthew 16:27).

The Destruction of the World. The world will be destroyed at the command of Our Divine Lord Jesus Christ. The fulfillment of this prophecy will be supernatural and not as a result of atomic wars, or geological or astronomical disturbances.

The Reign of the Church Victorious. The faithful of the Church will live and reign with Christ forever. The devils and evil men will be damned forever without reprieve.
(Cf. Robin Poe: icubed.com/~rpoe/endtimes.htm))
  1. However, there have been many, many “failed prophecies”:
    jloughnan.tripod.com/allproph.htm - sufficient enough, to be a serious warning to be “not deceived.”
  2. Some time ago, I put together a little study on Yves duPont’s works which may be of interest to some:
    jloughnan.tripod.com/forgery.htm
 
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TPJCatholic:
In the end there will be a great apostacy, which means the Church will largely fail…in many ways that is happening and has happened for several decades.

I agree that Russie should be consecrated, yet I do not know if the current Pope has the impetus to pull it off.
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I am pretty sure, Pope John Paul II consecrated Russia in the early/mid 80s.
 
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MariaGorettiGrl:
I’m personally glad that there are English masses. I like Latin, but having been to both Latin and English masses, I’m so much more focused when I don’t have to follow a book or think in another language. Granted, I’m sure Vatican II was not done with ME in mind. But I think that it’s helpful for some to have the English and helpful for others to have the Latin. 👍
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I agree! Being a pre-Vatican 2 cradle Catholic, I would not be excited about having a Latin Mass all the time. I would say that half the people didn’t know what was going on before Vatican 2. But this has been discussed on another thread, so I’m not going to start over. There has been much discussion about the end times and the anti-Christ, but I believe that only God knows when this will take place. Anything else is just another attempt of some people to make us think they are as all-knowing as God is. The end will come like a thief in the night, and it is our job to be ready when this happens. God bless.
 
davy39 wrote:
The end will come like a thief in the night, and it is our job to be ready when this happens. God bless
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Amen! - and, no-one will “miss-out”!
 
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Hildebrand:
I am pretty sure, Pope John Paul II consecrated Russia in the early/mid 80s.
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He consecrated the whole world, as Pius XII also did. The call was specifically for Russia, however. It also requires all the bishops to do it with the pope, I think.
 
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Genesis315:
He consecrated the whole world, as Pius XII also did. The call was specifically for Russia, however. It also requires all the bishops to do it with the pope, I think.
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Correct.
 
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