Veneration of Ikons in an Orthodox Church

[carefullytread]

If a Catholic is in an Orthodox Church, is it appropriate for them to venerate the ikons? I’m curious to know the answer from both sides. Does the Orthodox Church want the Catholic to venerate them and does the Catholic allow or even encourage it?

What about Ikons that depict saints not recognized by the Catholic Church? Is it encouraged? Is it allowed, but discouraged? Is it forbidden?

 

[Young_Ludovicus]

The Catholic Church isn’t Orthodox in the Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox sense. So to call it Orthodox would be a confusing matter. Just like if you’d call EO and OO, Catholic.

But Yeah catholics are allowed to venerate icons. There are a lot of Eastern Rite Catholics and they venerate icons, so it’s perfectly fine to do so.
Regarding saints that aren’t recognised as saints by the church that is a difficult matter. In past times saints were something that were venerated locally. The church centralized this matter. I guess it’s best to refrain from icons with those saints.

 

[carefullytread]

The Catholic Church isn’t Orthodox in the Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox sense. So to call it Orthodox would be a confusing matter. Just like if you’d call EO and OO, Catholic.

But Yeah catholics are allowed to venerate icons. There are a lot of Eastern Rite Catholics and they venerate icons, so it’s perfectly fine to do so.
Regarding saints that aren’t recognised as saints by the church that is a difficult matter. In past times saints were something that were venerated locally. The church centralized this matter. I guess it’s best to refrain from icons with those saints.

I’m using ‘Orthodox’ here in the sense of EO, not lower case ‘orthodox’. So I’m referring to venerating icons in an EO church. I guess I could equally as the question about OO churches, but it wasn’t what I had in mind.

 

[Cider]

I always did when I attended Divine Liturgy.

 

[Young_Ludovicus]

I’m using ‘Orthodox’ here in the sense of EO, not lower case ‘orthodox’. So I’m referring to venerating icons in an EO church. I guess I could equally as the question about OO churches, but it wasn’t what I had in mind.

I misread your first post. I thougth you called the Catholic Church an Orthodox Church. Hence my confusion.

You can, but for latin rite catholics it isn’t standard practice, as long as you still go to mass it’s okay. But to venerate saints that aren’t saints according to Catholicism that’s the bigger problem/question here. What if they have done very questionable things or were very anti-catholic. It wouldn’t be right for you to venerate them in that instance.

 

[BusterMartin]

I misread your first post. I thougth you called the Catholic Church an Orthodox Church. Hence my confusion.

You can, but for latin rite catholics it isn’t standard practice, as long as you still go to mass it’s okay. But to venerate saints that aren’t saints according to Catholicism that’s the bigger problem/question here. What if they have done very questionable things or were very anti-catholic. It wouldn’t be right for you to venerate them in that instance.

I, personally, would disagree with this. Orthodox saints are saints, even if not in the Catholic list of saints. To venerate them, their relics, their icons, does not say that you agree with every choice they’ve made or every viewpoint they’ve held. It does, however, mean that you understand that the person is now in heaven, can intercede for you, and lived a holy life pleasing enough to God to find his or her way to heaven. In that sense, the person’s life is something you can emulate. Pray to those Orthodox saints and venerate their icons, as they are powerful intercessors before God, regardless of their canonical affiliation while on earth.

 

[carefullytread]

I, personally, would disagree with this. Orthodox saints are saints, even if not in the Catholic list of saints. To venerate them, their relics, their icons, does not say that you agree with every choice they’ve made or every viewpoint they’ve held. It does, however, mean that you understand that the person is now in heaven, can intercede for you, and lived a holy life pleasing enough to God to find his or her way to heaven. In that sense, the person’s life is something you can emulate. Pray to those Orthodox saints and venerate their icons, as they are powerful intercessors before God, regardless of their canonical affiliation while on earth.

But, as a Catholic, can you say you believe they are in heaven? I thought that part of the canonization process was the Church infallibly asserting the person was in heaven and allowing the cult of that person. I’m not sure that venerating an icon is the same as acknowledging the public cult of a saint, but it is a public action if done in the open in an Orthodox church.

 

[Kmon23]

I believe he has the best answer.
For one thing, an Icon is an icon, and is holy in virtue of the person depicted (which is why for example a lot of Orthodox don’t mind having icons from this monastery in the US which is schismatic). Also if Orthodox have an icon given by Catholics, most definitely we will venerate it! And vice versa.

Now whether it is a post-schism saint, usually it’s not condoned that much for an Orthodox venerating a CC saint, since well the schism is more than just canonical schism but also the (non unanimous) charge of heresy by some, so it is a bit iffy for an Orthodox to venerate a saint of a church charged with heresy (although not unanimous on this charge).
But again, there are individual Orthodox (and an entire monastery I forget) that venerate very much St. Francis of Assisi, and I’ve heard of some clergy (priests and bishops) who venerate St. Francis of Assisi with no issues on his sanctity although he was post-schism.

But for a Catholic, the POV with the EO church is that they are only in schism and there aren’t any formal charges of heresy, and since they also say they have valid sacraments and is very much a true church (although lacking full communion with the CC), it would seem most appropriate for a catholic to acknowledge/venerate an Orthodox saint if the situation ever comes up (although I assume very anti-catholic EO saints are a bit iffy like St. Mark of Ephesus, but I mean generally).

Eastern Catholics also venerate many post-schism saints, and it would probably be not much different than a random christian (pre-schism) coming to venerate a saint where that saint is not venerated outside of that local church. I’m going to a monastery next month, where they venerate the relics of someone that is not officially recognized as a saint yet in any form, except being venerated as such in this tiny town (which is the way it was done in the early church).

 

[Coquelicot]

Certainly you may venerate them! The Second Council of Nicaea is an Ecumenical Council for you guys, too.

 

[Reuben_J]

But, as a Catholic, can you say you believe they are in heaven? I thought that part of the canonization process was the Church infallibly asserting the person was in heaven … .

I will address this part only. I agree with you, that is what a canonized saint means.

We also believe that there were many Christians who went before us who are with God in His heavenly kingdom but may not be canonized.

Your question essentially means, do we agree with the Orthodox’ choices of saints?

To begin with, they are not Catholics and therefore do not use the same process, same people who determine the canonization. In that sense, Catholics strictly have no obligation to agree with their choices.

Remember, it is not the same as saying their saints are not in heaven. We do not make that judgment.

 

[carefullytread]

I will address this part only. I agree with you, that is what a canonized saint means.

We also believe that there were many Christians who went before us who are with God in His heavenly kingdom but may not be canonized.

Your question essentially means, do we agree with the Orthodox’ choices of saints?

To begin with, they are not Catholics and therefore do not use the same process, same people who determine the canonization. In that sense, Catholics strictly have no obligation to agree with their choices.

Remember, it is not the same as saying their saints are not in heaven. We do not make that judgment.

I know that the Church doesn’t make statements about people’s salvation in general. So the question definitely isn’t “Does the Church teach that Orthodox saints aren’t really in Heaven?”

It was more a question of permission. I thought there might be a rule against participating in the public cult of someone not appropriately recognized by the Church, which an Orthodox but not Catholic saint may fall under.

 

[carefullytread]

Certainly you may venerate them! The Second Council of Nicaea is an Ecumenical Council for you guys, too.

In general, yes, I know that Catholics can venerate icons. We have them in Eastern Catholic churches afterall. The question was more about the rules on venerating icons while in an Orthodox Church.

Is that allowed, but frowned upon? Is it always ok? Are there rules about only doing it for icons that depict saints also recognized by the Catholic Church? etc

 

[Reuben_J]

I know that the Church doesn’t make statements about people’s salvation in general. So the question definitely isn’t “Does the Church teach that Orthodox saints aren’t really in Heaven?”

AFAIK, there is no such ruling. A general guideline would be in my first answer, we are not obliged to agree.

As for saints/deceased who are not in heaven, we do not make that judgment. We do not know. We believe believers are in heaven or purgatory before they go to heaven.

It was more a question of permission. I thought there might be a rule against participating in the public cult of someone not appropriately recognized by the Church, which an Orthodox but not Catholic saint may fall under.

I agree with you here, the reason why I do not want to answer this question in my earlier post.