Venial and Mortal sin?

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Hi Phillip,

The verses in the NT are 1 John 5:16-17

Hi Celticvoice,

Thanks for providing the book, chapter, and verses. I looked them up in the Ignatius study bible last night. It’s hardly conclusive, but Dr. Hahn does point out that St. John was probably originally referring to heresy/apostasy as the “sin unto death,” not mortal vs. venial sin. He said it wasn’t until later that the Western Church started interpreting the text as mortal vs. venial sin. I’m not trying to discredit the validity of the interpretation. I’m trying, rather, to understand the process. Further study will be done.

 

[Celticnovice]

Hi Celticvoice,

Thanks for providing the book, chapter, and verses. I looked them up in the Ignatius study bible last night. It’s hardly conclusive, but Dr. Hahn does point out that St. John was probably originally referring to heresy/apostasy as the “sin unto death,” not mortal vs. venial sin. He said it wasn’t until later that the Western Church started interpreting the text as mortal vs. venial sin. I’m not trying to discredit the validity of the interpretation. I’m trying, rather, to understand the process. Further study will be done.

You’re welcome sir. Let me know what you find, also, I know paragraphs #1855-1875 in the CCC talks about this as well.

Also, the Western Church might be building this idea from an earlier Jewish concept, here is a link from EWTN

 

[rciadan]

Hi rciadan

…because I had company show up suddenly and, therefore, didn’t have time to complete my post.

 

[Vico]

Does the Byzantine Church teach the concept of Mortal and venial sin? At the DL, the priest said that the Eastern Church does not believe in such…

Jesus answered [him], “You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above. For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.” – John 19:11

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. – I John 5:16-17

 

[rciadan]

Jesus answered [him], “You would have no power over me if it had not been given to you from above. For this reason the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.” – John 19:11

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly. – I John 5:16-17

The 1 John verses have already been introduced and commented on. Read some of the posts between the op and this one and you will get a few interesting insights on them. John 19:11, you mention for the 1st time.
Most on this thread seems to be in agreement that all sin is serious, with the danger of delivering death to the soul, even though there are sins more serious than others. And yet, those more serious sins are not so easily listed because it is more a matter of circumstance and attitude than “type” or “name” of sin. Can we agree on this, or would some amend this statement?

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

The 1 John verses have already been introduced and commented on. Read some of the posts between the op and this one and you will get a few interesting insights on them. John 19:11, you mention for the 1st time.
Most on this thread seems to be in agreement that all sin is serious, with the danger of delivering death to the soul, even though there are sins more serious than others. And yet, those more serious sins are not so easily listed because it is more a matter of circumstance and attitude than “type” or “name” of sin. Can we agree on this, or would some amend this statement?

One thing that a priest once told me is that in the East there is no real concept of a definitive moment wherein the soul is separated from God. All sin is a gradual separation from the Trinitarian life; hence the need for frequent confession. The longer we remain in sin and refuse to go to confession and participate in the other saving Mysteries, the further we find ourselves from the life of God, until one day we realize that the Trinitarian life within us (i.e. Baptismal grace) has died.

Such a description by no means invalidates the theories of venial and mortal sin, much less contradicts them. Rather it just looks at the reality of sin differently. Whereas the West tends to define the moments of a definitive break from the Trinitarian life, the (Byzantine)East views sin as a whole trending away from that Trinitarian life. To such the extent that we remain in sin - any sin, venial or mortal - to that extent we have not yet fully surrendered ourselves to the Trinitarian life and worked synergistically with God for our salvation (and remember, salvation is not just “salvation from” but also “salvation for”).

 

[Celticnovice]

One thing that a priest once told me is that in the East there is no real concept of a definitive moment wherein the soul is separated from God. All sin is a gradual separation from the Trinitarian life; hence the need for frequent confession. The longer we remain in sin and refuse to go to confession and participate in the other saving Mysteries, the further we find ourselves from the life of God, until one day we realize that the Trinitarian life within us (i.e. Baptismal grace) has died.

Such a description by no means invalidates the theories of venial and mortal sin, much less contradicts them. Rather it just looks at the reality of sin differently. Whereas the West tends to define the moments of a definitive break from the Trinitarian life, the (Byzantine)East views sin as a whole trending away from that Trinitarian life. To such the extent that we remain in sin - any sin, venial or mortal - to that extent we have not yet fully surrendered ourselves to the Trinitarian life and worked synergistically with God for our salvation (and remember, salvation is not just “salvation from” but also “salvation for”).

Agreed on all points

 

[Vico]

The 1 John verses have already been introduced and commented on. Read some of the posts between the op and this one and you will get a few interesting insights on them. John 19:11, you mention for the 1st time.
Most on this thread seems to be in agreement that all sin is serious, with the danger of delivering death to the soul, even though there are sins more serious than others. And yet, those more serious sins are not so easily listed because it is more a matter of circumstance and attitude than “type” or “name” of sin. Can we agree on this, or would some amend this statement?

When the eastern Catholic bishops constucted the canon laws they knew that the entire Church shares in the same Holy Mysteries. Therefore Holy Confession must also be in essence the same. There are differences in the administration of the Mystery between the various Catholic ritual churches. Where the CIC uses the term mortal sin, the CCEO uses the term serious sin. Also no waiting to confess (such as in Lent) in the eastern ritual Churches, but as soon as possible.

CCEO Canon 711
A person who is conscious of serious sin is not to celebrate the Divine Liturgy nor receive the Divine Eucharist unless a serious reason is present and there is no opportunity of receiving the sacrament of penance; in this case the person should make an act of perfect condition, including the intention of confessing as soon as possible.

 

[5Loaves]

It is not fair to compare the ideal in the Eastern Church to the common practice in the Western Church. Weekly Confession prior to the reception of Communion is ideal in both traditions. I know an active, **practicing Greek Orthodox woman who hasn’t been to Confession in years. ** She does receive Communion. When I asked her about Confession in her church, she was surprised and replied that she didn’t think they really did that much anymore. That is exactly the response that I might expect from a person of her generation at my local Roman Catholic church. In 1972 the OCA authorized the use of “General Confession Services” , which were supposed to strengthen and encourage individual Confessions. In many places, it had the opposite effect. People stopped coming to individual Confession. Does that sound familiar? Think 2x a year “Penance Services”. Eastern Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, are not immune from the same sicknesses that affect the Western Church.

In the East, EC and Orthodox we have four extended Fasts in preparation for Feasts:Great Lent, Nativity Fast, Apostles’ Fast, and Dormition Fast. Going to confession during these Fasts is an important part of the Fast. So, at least 4 times a year one should go to confession. In the case of serious sin of course one should seek confession as soon as possible. The Greeks do seem to be much less frequent with confession than are we slavs. This could be partly because some priests are not permitted to hear confessions. So the parish could have a priest who is able to celebrate the Divine Liturgy and Baptisms/Chrismations, but not yet able to hear confessions. This I understand is part of what has led to less frequent confession even when a confessor priest is available.

Fasting also partners with prayer, almsgiving and confession, readying the whole person like an athlete, body, mind, and soul, for an upcoming feast, similar to the way in which Orthodox Christians would hope to be properly prepared for the Second Coming. For this reason, during fasting seasons, no marriages should take place. **Another important part of any fasting period is going to Confession. **