Versus populum in byzantium

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filius_Immacula

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A poster on this forum once said that we easterns should look to the orthodox and take heed, well look at this

http://www.praytellblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Greek-1.jpg

I’m told that there is a tendency in Greece to resurrect ancient liturgies such as those of Jame, Sarapion, Mark, or Gregory the Theologian, along with some liturgical experimentation. This can mean the priest faces the people, or Communion is given separately rather than by intinction.

No doubt these experimental events are efforts to bring people closer to the liturgy. There is a populist streak to all this, for such events are popular and attract crowds. Soversus populumisn’t just a post-Vatican II Roman thing.
 
filius_Immacula said:
Soversus populumisn’t just a post-Vatican II Roman thing.
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Maybe not, but the Latin Church has its own traditions. And the literally over-night switch from the traditional ad orientem to versus populum was not in keeping with the organic development of tradition that was the hallmark of the pre-conciliar Church.

I have always been perplexed by the idea that it is a good thing for us to reach back into the 1st and 2nd centuries and conform our Mass to how it was celebrated back then. It is more pure and more in keeping with the spirit of the Apostles and early Christians many will argue. But such an idea necessarily requires that the pious traditions accreted over the 18 centuries separating us from the 2nd century are either downplayed or totally disposed of.
 
filius_Immacula said:
A poster on this forum once said that we easterns should look to the orthodox and take heed, well look at this

http://www.praytellblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Greek-1.jpg

I’m told that there is a tendency in Greece to resurrect ancient liturgies such as those of Jame, Sarapion, Mark, or Gregory the Theologian, along with some liturgical experimentation. This can mean the priest faces the people, or Communion is given separately rather than by intinction.

No doubt these experimental events are efforts to bring people closer to the liturgy. There is a populist streak to all this, for such events are popular and attract crowds. Soversus populumisn’t just a post-Vatican II Roman thing.
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I have never heard of the liturgies of Sarapion***** or Mark******, but…

The Orthodox Church never stopped celebrating the Liturgy of Saint James or the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian. The Liturgy of St. Gregory is simply another name for the Vesperal Pre-Sanctified Liturgy that is performed on weekdays of Great Lent. Every devout Orthodox has attended one. The Liturgy of St. James is rarely done today, but I have had the privilege of attending one. I don’t recall whether the one I attended was performed versus populum. (There are two versions of it; one is ad orientem and the other is versus populum. I attended the liturgy at a Greek parish, so it was probably done versus populum.) Certainly, in the Jerusalem Patriarchate, where the liturgy is most commonly done, it is done versus populum, but that is not a recent innovation as in the case of the Latin Rite. Rather, the Liturgy of St. James has been performed like that for centuries. It is our oldest liturgy in continuous use. There is nothing experimental about introducing the Liturgy of St. James to a parish, and certainly it does not suffer any ills that could be described as irreverent. It is just as solemn and reverent as the Liturgies of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom. At the Liturgy of St. James I attended, communion was given with the use of a spoon. Maybe some places do otherwise. I do not know.

UPDATES:

*Relevant links about the Liturgy of Serapion:

** The Divine Liturgy of St. Mark was once the primary liturgy of the Patriarchate of Alexandria. The oldest surviving copy of it is from the fourth century. Over the centuries, it has largely fallen out of use, but continued to be served by the Patriarchate on the Feast of St. Mark for some time. A few seminaries/monasteries now celebrate the liturgy annually on the Feast of St. Mark.
 
Zabdi_Premjit said:
I have never heard of the liturgies of Sarapion***** or Mark******, but…

The Orthodox Church never stopped celebrating the Liturgy of Saint James or the Liturgy of St. Gregory the Theologian. The Liturgy of St. Gregory is simply another name for the Vesperal Pre-Sanctified Liturgy that is performed on weekdays of Great Lent. Every devout Orthodox has attended one. The Liturgy of St. James is rarely done today, but I have had the privilege of attending one. I don’t recall whether the one I attended was performed versus populum. (There are two versions of it; one is ad orientem and the other is versus populum. I attended the liturgy at a Greek parish, so it was probably done versus populum.) Certainly, in the Jerusalem Patriarchate, where the liturgy is most commonly done, it is done versus populum, but that is not a recent innovation as in the case of the Latin Rite. Rather, the Liturgy of St. James has been performed like that for centuries. It is our oldest liturgy in continuous use. There is nothing experimental about introducing the Liturgy of St. James to a parish, and certainly it does not suffer any ills that could be described as irreverent. It is just as solemn and reverent as the Liturgies of St. Basil and St. John Chrysostom. At the Liturgy of St. James I attended, communion was given with the use of a spoon. Maybe some places do otherwise. I do not know.

UPDATES:

*Relevant links about the Liturgy of Serapion:

** The Divine Liturgy of St. Mark was once the primary liturgy of the Patriarchate of Alexandria. The oldest surviving copy of it is from the fourth century. Over the centuries, it has largely fallen out of use, but continued to be served by the Patriarchate on the Feast of St. Mark for some time. A few seminaries/monasteries now celebrate the liturgy annually on the Feast of St. Mark.
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Awesome, could not agree more, this is in the sPirit of our patrimony
 
filius_Immacula said:
Soversus populumisn’t just a post-Vatican II Roman thing.
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That’s absolutely right. The celebration of Mass facing the people is explicitly approved of in the rite of Mass approved in 1570: “If the altar faces East toward the people, the celebrant facing toward the people, he does not turn his back to the altar when saying Dominus vobiscum, Orate fratres, Ite missa est, or when giving the blessing, but having kissed the altar in the middle, there extending and joining his hands, as above, he salutes the people.” (Missale Romanum 1570 A.D., Ritus Servandus, Chapter 5 Paragraph 3) source

Celebrating Mass facing the people is a centuries-old tradition in the Latin-Rite Catholic Church. It’s just that for a while it was less common.
 
dmar198 said:
That’s absolutely right. The celebration of Mass facing the people is explicitly approved of in the rite of Mass approved in 1570: “If the altar faces East toward the people, the celebrant facing toward the people, he does not turn his back to the altar when saying Dominus vobiscum, Orate fratres, Ite missa est, or when giving the blessing, but having kissed the altar in the middle, there extending and joining his hands, as above, he salutes the people.” (Missale Romanum 1570 A.D., Ritus Servandus, Chapter 5 Paragraph 3) source

Celebrating Mass facing the people is a centuries-old tradition in the Latin-Rite Catholic Church. It’s just that for a while it was less common.
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And the east :byzsoc: 🙂
 
ByzCathCantor said:
How have you come to that conclusion? Based on the posted photo? You do realize that there are blessings that take place outside the sanctuary. These priests are gathered at the tetrapod and not at the altar, which is located behind the icon screen.
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Not just the photo but the article
 
dmar198 said:
That’s absolutely right. The celebration of Mass facing the people is explicitly approved of in the rite of Mass approved in 1570: “If the altar faces East toward the people, the celebrant facing toward the people, he does not turn his back to the altar when saying Dominus vobiscum, Orate fratres, Ite missa est, or when giving the blessing, but having kissed the altar in the middle, there extending and joining his hands, as above, he salutes the people.” (Missale Romanum 1570 A.D., Ritus Servandus, Chapter 5 Paragraph 3) source

Celebrating Mass facing the people is a centuries-old tradition in the Latin-Rite Catholic Church. It’s just that for a while it was less common.
Click to expand...
No. Offering Mass facing eastward with the accidental quality of also facing the people was sometimes practiced. There is no “centuries old tradition” of facing the people for their own sake.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
How have you come to that conclusion? Based on the posted photo? You do realize that there are blessings that take place outside the sanctuary. These priests are gathered at the tetrapod and not at the altar, which is located behind the icon screen.
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That picture is of the Liturgy of Serapion, so I believe that is indeed the Holy Table they are standing around, not a tetrapod.

For the Liturgy of St. James, the Holy Table is also erected in plain view of the laity and not behind an iconostasis. **
 
Zabdi_Premjit said:
That picture is of the Liturgy of Serapion, so I believe that is indeed the Holy Table they are standing around, not a tetrapod.

For the Liturgy of St. James, the Holy Table is also erected in plain view of the laity and not behind an iconostasis. **

Yeah, just caught that after tracing the source of the photo in the OP.
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Also, to note, the main celebrant would stand behind the altar, not in front of it (with his back to the altar) or to it’s front and side as is practiced today.
 
R_H_Benson said:
No. Offering Mass facing eastward with the accidental quality of also facing the people was sometimes practiced.
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I don’t think Mass was always offered facing east. It is my understanding that the side altars in ancient cathedrals typically faced north and south. In the Old Mass, as well as in the Extraordinary Form, facing east has never been required and facing the people has always been an option.
 
filius_Immacula said:
No doubt these experimental events are efforts to bring people closer to the liturgy. There is a populist streak to all this, for such events are popular and attract crowds. Soversus populumisn’t just a post-Vatican II Roman thing.
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But what was the source of the post-conciliar Roman innovation? Did they reference this old liturgy when forcing the change in all of the Latin parishes?
 
outremer said:
But what was the source of the post-conciliar Roman innovation? Did they reference this old liturgy when forcing the change in all of the Latin parishes?
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Where has the change been forced? Can’t priests still offer the Mass facing East, not toward the people, and in the extraordinary form?
 
dmar198 said:
Where has the change been forced? Can’t priests still offer the Mass facing East, not toward the people, and in the extraordinary form?
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In virtually all Latin parishes, this is the norm, and has been for decades. I’m curious what the justification was? Ad orientem is, for me, a sign of deeper theological worldview.
 
outremer said:
In virtually all Latin parishes, this is the norm, and has been for decades. I’m curious what the justification was? Ad orientem is, for me, a sign of deeper theological worldview.
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Only a majority of priests decided to start using the option of facing the people more often (an option which was there all along), and perhaps part of the reason why was because they did not think ad orientem is a sign of a deeper theological worldview. As far as I know, the Church has never required anybody to believe that ad orientem is better than versus populum, and therefore different people can think different things about it.
 
*October 23 and Sunday after the Nativity.
*
  • facing the east - then the holy table is behind the iconostatis (Slavic).
  • facing the people - then the holy table is in front of the iconostasis (Greek).
When the celebrant (bishop) and 12 concelebrants are present, there may not be enough room behind the iconostasis.
 
Zabdi_Premjit said:
The Orthodox Church never stopped celebrating the Liturgy of Saint James…
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The Catholic Church never stopped celebrating the Liturgy of St. James, the most ancient surviving liturgy, for it’s always been the liturgy of the Catholic Maronite Church.

Pax Christi
 
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