"Vigil" acceptable or not for TONIGHT?

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marysea

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Because Christmas is a Feast Day, my understanding was you cannot have a Vigil Mass, such as the usual Saturday 5 pm, and apply it to your Christmas obligation. However, “midnight” masses that begin after the time for the beginning of a Feast (sundown?), such as 8 or 9 pm are of course applicable to the Christmas obligation. It’s a bit confusing because Christmas is on a Sunday.

Due to my travel schedule, I really would like to know if I can go to the 5:00 Saturday Mass and truly fulfill my Feast Day obligation or not. Ask your priest, you say? Well…

We have two parishes nearby. One, with a very orthodox and knowledgeable priest, you cannot have a “vigil” Mass for Christmas and that parish is NOT holding their usual 5 pm, but they are having a 9 pm “midnight” mass. However, the other nearby church, with a sort of looney priest, says the 5 pm can apply to Christmas, and that parish is having a 5:00 “Vigil”, a 10 pm midnight.

Anyone out there understand these finer points? I would really like to know. 1. So I can really make sure I’m in line with Church teaching on which Mass I attend for Christmas. and 2. So I know which priest to tell he’s mistaken.

THANKS.
 
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marysea:
Because Christmas is a Feast Day, my understanding was you cannot have a Vigil Mass, such as the usual Saturday 5 pm, and apply it to your Christmas obligation.
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Canon Law makes no exception for the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ:

Canon 1248 Section 1 The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a catholic rite either on a holyday itself or on the evening of the previous day.
 
That brings up two questions: when does “evening” start? For example, the Easter Vigil cannot begin before about 8 pm. And, a “vigil” Mass has different readings than the Feast Day, in my missalette there is no “vigil” Mass for Christmas. Yet the one priest is having a “vigil” Mass and an “evening” Mass. I still don’t understand if that first one is valid to meet the Christmas Feast Day obligation. For example, we never have 5:00 pm Masses for any other Holy Day of Obligation, such as Immaculate Conception, Assumption, etc.
 
It is up to the bishop of the diocese, simply call the parish and ask for the times of Christmas Masses, if they list Christmas eve Masses, you’re fine. Here most parishes have 3-4 Christmas eve Mass, and only one Christmas day, this schedule supercedes the usual Sunday Mass schedule since when a Solemnity falls on a Sunday that is celebrated, not the Sunday.
 
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marysea:
That brings up two questions: when does “evening” start? For example, the Easter Vigil cannot begin before about 8 pm. And, a “vigil” Mass has different readings than the Feast Day, in my missalette there is no “vigil” Mass for Christmas. Yet the one priest is having a “vigil” Mass and an “evening” Mass. I still don’t understand if that first one is valid to meet the Christmas Feast Day obligation. For example, we never have 5:00 pm Masses for any other Holy Day of Obligation, such as Immaculate Conception, Assumption, etc.
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My *Workbook for Lectors and Gospel Readers *(Liturgy Training Publications) contains readings for:
  • Christmas Vigil
  • Christmas Midnight
  • Christmas Dawn
  • Christmas Day
While the book may be suspect in some areas, I am confident that it is correct in listing those four celebrations

“Evening” is defined by the bishop, or perhaps the bishops’ conference (I know that locally anticipated Masses must begin no earlier than 4pm). The Easter Vigil may not begin before local dusk (again, locally my diocese annually announces the earliest start time, taking dusk into account).

tee
 
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marysea:
We have two parishes nearby. One, with a very orthodox and knowledgeable priest, you cannot have a “vigil” Mass for Christmas and that parish is NOT holding their usual 5 pm, but they are having a 9 pm “midnight” mass. However, the other nearby church, with a sort of looney priest, says the 5 pm can apply to Christmas, and that parish is having a 5:00 “Vigil”, a 10 pm midnight.

Anyone out there understand these finer points? I would really like to know. 1. So I can really make sure I’m in line with Church teaching on which Mass I attend for Christmas. and 2. So I know which priest to tell he’s mistaken.

THANKS.
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I’m quoting an excerpt from your post that I find disturbing. Your characterization of one of these priests as ‘loony’ is really disrespectful. Also, I find your eagerness to scold one of these priests really unspiritual, especially over a small legalistic matter that you appear unknowledgable about yourself.

FYI, my Parish is offering a 5PM, and 9PM Christmas Vigil, and an 8AM Mass on Christmas. Then, I presume, our priest, who is also a human being with a recently widowed brother who lives over an hour away, will drive to spend the day among his kin.

I find your attitude highly uncharitable.
 
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spiritblows:
I’m quoting an excerpt from your post that I find disturbing. Your characterization of one of these priests as ‘loony’ is really disrespectful. Also, I find your eagerness to scold one of these priests really unspiritual, especially over a small legalistic matter that you appear unknowledgable about yourself.

FYI, my Parish is offering a 5PM, and 9PM Christmas Vigil, and an 8AM Mass on Christmas. Then, I presume, our priest, who is also a human being with a recently widowed brother who lives over an hour away, will drive to spend the day among his kin.

I find your attitude highly uncharitable.
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Hmmm, and I find your attitude rather judgmental. I am not “eager to scold” anyone, that’s your negative interpretation of my statement that I want to give the correct knowledge to whichever one is mistaken. I am on personal terms with both.

As for “loony”, I think most people who know what’s happening in the Church in America today willl understand that as a catch-all word to describe one of these priests who is not orthodox and is always introducing bizarre things into the liturgy, disregarding the rubrics, changing the words of the Mass, etc. I was showing the contrast between the two priests, which is what gave rise to my doubts about the whole issue.

When you get two different answers from two different priests (in the same diocese), and one is already known to disregard many church protocols, naturally I am inclined to doubt that he is the one that’s correct. I was trying to briefly paint a picture of my dilemma, not disrespect anyone. If I had posted his name…well, that would be disrespectful!
 
Dear Marysea,
The word ‘loonie’ is derogatory, and it was used in your post by you. There are many other more respectful terms that you could have used.

The Church provides these alternate times out of consideration for her busy children, who have so many worldly demands and obligations. Also, she is more aware of the personal needs of our priests, who need flexibility for their own lives as well.

Yes, from your post, I do discern that you have an enthusiasism to correct one of these priests, and obviously it’s the ‘loonie’ one, correct? That is my personal assessment of your motive, the evidence for you provided in your post. You can call me judgemental for that if you please, but I stick to what I said.
 
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spiritblows:
Dear Marysea,
The word ‘loonie’ is derogatory, and it was used in your post by you. There are many other more respectful terms that you could have used.

The Church provides these alternate times out of consideration for her busy children, who have so many worldly demands and obligations. Also, she is more aware of the personal needs of our priests, who need flexibility for their own lives as well.

Yes, from your post, I do discern that you have an enthusiasism to correct one of these priests, and obviously it’s the ‘loonie’ one, correct? That is my personal assessment of your motive, the evidence for you provided in your post. You can call me judgemental for that if you please, but I stick to what I said.
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Thing is, it’s their JOB to know, and if they don’t, then it’s THEIR JOB to find out. They are the ones responsible for the mass - they should at least know what mass they are supposed to be celebrating!! That’s why they spend 6-8 years in seminary!

The laity have been left out there all alone for decades.

All we want is the teaching of the church, the TRUE CHURCH, not somebody’s personal opinion - which is just another way of saying “protestant theology”.

GOD HELP US!!
Angel
 
Dear Angels Watching,
Name calling is never acceptable, and yes, I’m very well aware that there are liturgical irregularities. But, when someone comes on here and uses the word ‘loonie’ to describe one of the priests with whom they have a ‘personal relationship’, they lose credibility in my eyes, and also I’m glad I don’t have a personal relationship with them if thats how they talk about their ‘friends’.
 
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marysea:
Because Christmas is a Feast Day, my understanding was you cannot have a Vigil Mass, such as the usual Saturday 5 pm, and apply it to your Christmas obligation. However, “midnight” masses that begin after the time for the beginning of a Feast (sundown?), such as 8 or 9 pm are of course applicable to the Christmas obligation. It’s a bit confusing because Christmas is on a Sunday.

Due to my travel schedule, I really would like to know if I can go to the 5:00 Saturday Mass and truly fulfill my Feast Day obligation or not. Ask your priest, you say? Well…

We have two parishes nearby. One, with a very orthodox and knowledgeable priest, you cannot have a “vigil” Mass for Christmas and that parish is NOT holding their usual 5 pm, but they are having a 9 pm “midnight” mass. However, the other nearby church, with a sort of looney priest, says the 5 pm can apply to Christmas, and that parish is having a 5:00 “Vigil”, a 10 pm midnight.

Anyone out there understand these finer points? I would really like to know. 1. So I can really make sure I’m in line with Church teaching on which Mass I attend for Christmas. and 2. So I know which priest to tell he’s mistaken.

THANKS.
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Christmas is a Holy Day of Obligation so it has a vigil. Anytime after 4:00pm in teh US. Easter vigil is specified to be after sundown.
 
As we celebrate the Christmas season and the birth of our Savior, perhaps we could all, in the spirit of Christmas charity, make a better effort to be respectful and kind in our posts here as well as to our clergy.

May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with all of you and your families this day, whether you celebrate at the Vigil, Midnight Mass, Mass at Dawn, or Mass During the Day.

:amen:
 
Br. Rich SFO:
Christmas is a Holy Day of Obligation so it has a vigil.
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I thought a “normal” Sunday had “Mass of Anticipation” on the evening prior rather than a “Vigil”.
 
I vote with Bro. Rich, SFO. 👍

The Mother Parish of Arlington, TX is having three Masses Saturday evening, midnight Mass, and three Masses on Sunday. We normally only have one Saturday Vigil Mass for Sunday Obligation. We wouldn’t be having two additional Masses on Saturday if they were not for Christmas/Sunday Obligation.
 
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Timidity:
I thought a “normal” Sunday had “Mass of Anticipation” on the evening prior rather than a “Vigil”.
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(I hope I say this correctly) Christmas is a Solemnity and therefore replaces the Sunday Mass. As will the Solemnity of Mary on January first.
 
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Timidity:
I thought a “normal” Sunday had “Mass of Anticipation” on the evening prior rather than a “Vigil”.
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  1. The Solemnity of the Nativity has its own vigil, which has its own readings. There are, I believe, several other feasts which have their own vigils as well, including Easter, St. Lawrence, St. John the Baptist, and Sts. Peter and Paul.
  2. Many parishes have a “Mass of Anticipation” on Saturday evenings after 4pm. These Masses include readings taken from the normative Sunday Mass which follows the next day. As you said, a “Vigil” Mass is different from a regular “Mass of Anticipation.”
  3. Christmas Mass supercedes the regular Sunday Mass.
  4. Attending the Christmas Vigil Mass on Saturday evening fulfills the obligation to hear Sunday Mass.
 
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muledog:
Many parishes have a “Mass of Anticipation” on Saturday evenings after 4pm. These Masses include readings taken from the normative Sunday Mass which follows the next day. As you said, a “Vigil” Mass is different from a regular “Mass of Anticipation.”
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Which is how I understood it, and why I was questioning Br. Rich’s statement which seemed to say that all Holy Days of Obligation have vigils. Based on more thought and his follow up post, I determined that he was speakig “conversationally” and not “technically”.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut though!
 
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Timidity:
Which is how I understood it, and why I was questioning Br. Rich’s statement which seemed to say that all Holy Days of Obligation have vigils. Based on more thought and his follow up post, I determined that he was speakig “conversationally” and not “technically”.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut though!
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I looked up Vigil in my copy of the Dictionary of the Liturgy, a post-Vatican II book with definitions for thousands of liturgical words. It begins by defining Vigil as “the eve or day before a specific feast or holy day characterized by special offices and prayers, frequently even having a specific Mass distinct from the one celebrated on the feast.”

It lists all current feasts that have Vigils attached to them. They are:
  1. Easter
  2. Christmas
  3. Pentecost
  4. Birth of John the Baptist
  5. The Assumption of the BMV
  6. Sts. Peter and Paul
IMHO, we have lost much of the meaning of true Vigils because of Saturday evening “anticipated” Mass and the fact that Vigils were originally prayed throughout the night (especially through the Divine Office - Liturgy of the Hours).
 
I am more concerned that I only went to one Mass this Christmas instead of my customary two or three (one to do music and the other with my family). I am also disturbed that I only went to church at my current home parish, instead of going to church at my home parish growing up too (and I’ve occassionally gotten called back to churches I’ve worked at previously to help out with music).

I must be slipping.
 
Yes, the Christmas Vigil does fullfill your obligation. Sundays technically begin at sunset on Saturday Evening. Solemnities (of which Christmas is) also begin at sunset on the preceding evening. This is because in the Jewish Calendars, days are from sunset to sunset, which is why pracitcing Jews gather at synogoge for the Sabath on Friday Evening.
 
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