Violence is not a Sin

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Shlemele

Regarding the home intruder with the knife. The question facing the Christian here is one of duty priority.

What is the 1st duty? To protect your family / guests from the intruder.

If the intruder is armed you will need to act quickly and effectively.

While the intruder is someone to be concerned about… the role he has chosen… an act of the will… needs to be recognized.

The closer we are to God in each situation… the better He will be able to work through us the actions He truly desires.

Holiness seeking as an ongoing activity appears the very best ongoing activity to prepare for such a horrible event… agreed?
 
Mike Cooksey:
Al Masetti

Al I agree with a lot of your (name removed by moderator)ut. I would only ask that you be a little gentler to the college targets.

There are indeed some who would make a topic just to cause problems. Yet, you and I both know that sometimes, the college troublemaker is attempting to solve a problem we can be dearly glad we don’t have to cope with.

Because it is private, he covers up his real need with various behavioral disguises.

The direction I’m going is looking into the real duty of the Catholic layman in regards to physical violence.

I tried to get specific information from “Ask an Apologist” but so far noting has emerged from that holy chamber.

Would it cover a lot of topics… yes. Do you have to provide all the answers …. No.

But I do appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut
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Actually, what happened was that I had a whole response written and right toward the end, I hit a wrong key and the whole response “went away”.

What I originally typed was that in Moral Theology there are both the objective matter and the subjective issues of the person. Within those there are some fine distinctions that need to be made.

For example (to the best of my recollection, I was up to seven or eight distinctions that required fine slicing and dicing),
  1. Violence by a person acting as an individual (self-defense, or with an option to be a pacifist or to turn the other cheek or to flee to avoid any violence…)
  2. Code:
    Violence by the soverign state.
  3. Code:
    Violence by a person acting as an agent of the soverign state (such as a police officer)
  4. Code:
    Violence by a person acting as an agent of the soverign state in an unlimited war situation (such as World War II)
  5. Code:
    Violence by a person acting as an agent of the soverign state in a constrained war situation (such as Vietnam)
  6. Code:
    Violence by a person acting as an agent of the soverign state in a deterrent war situation that might escalate to an unlimited war situation (such as the so-called "Cold War" with nuclearl weapons).
There were a bunch more distinctive situations… but these are the distinctions that need to be discussed and not simply dismissed. There is a superb book on Difficult Moral Decisions, which I do not have with me… by Germaine Grisez … author spelling from memory, in which seemingly a hundred dilemma types of situations are discussed in detail. It is really very complicated to consider these issues properly and not something that can be sized up in a hundred words or less.
 
Mike Cooksey:
The closer we are to God in each situation… the better He will be able to work through us the actions He truly desires.

Holiness seeking as an ongoing activity appears the very best ongoing activity to prepare for such a horrible event… agreed?
I agree, however my definition of being prepared and your probably differ. Part of my education is conflict resolution (preparing in my way) and part of this is finding the “third direction”. So often we see only two choices; Violence or avoidance. I believe God provides a third alternative in most cases, even if that alternative is not pleasant. Many times we jump to violence when talking can defuse the situation.

One important thing to keep in mind is that events like this are rare and if someone breaks into your house intending to do harm, it is rare that you are in a position to choose to intervene with deadly force. It might be more prudent to prepare for the every day conflicts we face rather than just the horrible ones. It’s our job to be Christ on earth so living in peace with our fellow man seems to be a good thing to practice as well.

On the subjects of making situational distinctions between types of conflicts to me it’s a bit of a moot point. I am a Christian before I am a soldier, peace officer or any other job that might compel me to enact violence on it’s behalf. MBs try not to compartmentalize like this. I am a pacifist so I could not take any of those jobs (Mennonite theology also assumes a secular state). I doubt that the US would want me in its military anyways, I would die for my country but never kill for it.

In closing I want to make it clear I have the utmost respect for those who do serve in the roles of soldier and peace officer. They are necessary roles.
 
Shlemele:
I am a Christian before I am a soldier, peace officer or any other job that might compel me to enact violence on it’s behalf. MBs try not to compartmentalize like this. I am a pacifist so I could not take any of those jobs (Mennonite theology also assumes a secular state). I doubt that the US would want me in its military anyways, I would die for my country but never kill for it.
In closing I want to make it clear I have the utmost respect for those who do serve in the roles of soldier and peace officer. They are necessary roles.
The trouble I have with this is I believe very firmly that something cannot be necessary and sinful at the same time. If killing for one’s country is morally wrong, then not only should Christians refrain from it, they should also not encourage others who do it. I guess I don’t like the idea that pacifists depend on people they believe to be unrighteous for their own defense. In effect, this system of belief requires that some people be outside Christianity. This isn’t an attack on you, of course, please understand that. 🙂 I just don’t fully understand the belief system and how it can be reasonably applied. Also, I thought this way before I ever considered joining the Army, so I’m not just trying to defend my job.

God Bless! 🙂
 
The Iambic Pen said:
Shlemele:
I guess I don’t like the idea that pacifists depend on people they believe to be unrighteous for their own defense. In effect, this system of belief requires that some people be outside Christianity.

To an extent this is true but this is why we Mennonites have moved around a bit. Early on Catholics and Protestants didn’t trust us because we didn’t fight. While it is true that an armed defence requires people outside Christianity, we don’t necessarily believe in our own defence.
 
Shlemele

We are assigned to two very different locations on the Lord’s work grid. Your assignment may very well be valid and intended to be.
Setting fear aside and putting on the scientist within ourselves……
The question you seem to need answered for yourself (have answered) is are you serving where God wants you to be.

I can confess to you that the church holding the fullness of Gods truth is the Roman Catholic. I was not born into it… in His mercy he called me to it and required me to pay a price for the move.

At the same time it is also true that He does not call everyone to serve in that community. For instance, could someone who is called to be a Methodist minister become a Catholic Priest?
Could a Catholic Priest serve a Methodist congregation and be well received?

Student to student…. We are all meant to be a member of His body…. But it is His responsibility to make us one.

In the meantime…… I suggest you put a fleece before the Lord to determine if you are where you really are meant to be.
Further, I would suggest that the fleece you set be visible, known to yourself and God alone, have a time limit on the event,
and ask Him to show you thereby if you are meant to change.

If He does not tell you to change…… Then you are where you need to be and you are living in special religious community….
It would be the devil or ignorant students like ourselves who would tempt you to change.

If you ARE where He wants you to be… then your combat will be against the fear of death for yourself and those you hold dear.
In that case God will protect you where you are…… Or will allow you to be martyred for Love of Him and His will in your life.

Internal Administrative Combat ejactulations:
Jesus, I give you this fear… Jesus I trust in your will…. Jesus thy will be done… not mine
Jesus, I love you and I am yours to do with as you please….
 
Deos anybody else remember when Jesus drove the people from the temple with a whip?
 
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Andrew_11:
Deos anybody else remember when Jesus drove the people from the temple with a whip?
Yes, jusus did but he didn’t instruct those with him to do the same. In the garden he comanded Peter not to resist. God’s will is perfect and ours is not so it makes sends for Jesus to drive them out. If Jesus had comanded his diciples to join him then wou would be talking a very different story altogether.
 
That is very true Shlemele, however you are fully aware that there are many many cases when God has directly ordered his people into battle, whether we like the idea or not.

The following things come quickly to mind:

The Old testament is loaded with cases. One set was when the tribe of Israel was marching into the land set aside for them. God also ordered his angel to destroy men at various times. The list goes on here with punishments against Israel where God raised up enemies against her, A woman saving the Jewish people by taking the head of Holferness… etc.

The new testament is a more difficult scenario in this regards because the mission of God was different. He did not come to physically conquer the world at that time. He told Pilate as much. Even so…the scripture lists one case when Jesus required swords among his apostles (with the implicit inference they needed to present that appearance and perhaps that they may need to use them for defense if necessary),…not a lot of details recorded there.

Finally, in the current age of the Holy Spirit (begun after Jesus’ ascension) St. Joan of Arc was given a direct set of commands leading men into battle in France.

This last is of course Christian Catholic History and discounted by or unknown to many of the separated Christian denominations, but it is valid nonetheless . Safeguards were used (proofs) by St Joan, and the desired result was achieved in a Holy manner.

Considering the reasons for God sending the Flood and only saving Noahs’ family, it grieves me that we are such a violent race that He needs to use violence in our education. Love it seems just many times does not get our collective attention.
 
Mike

I hear what you are saying and you are right, since some of the warrior/saints are Catholic tradition they really don’t play much part in my churches theology. The problem is though what happens when you have two sides claiming divine favor? I’m sot saying this was the case but through European history both sides in conflict have been Christian and used God to justify their wars. I believe as Christians we ought to know better. This is also why my church believes in a separation of secular powers and the church.
Mike Cooksey:
Even so…the scripture lists one case when Jesus required swords among his apostles (with the implicit inference they needed to present that appearance and perhaps that they may need to use them for defense if necessary)
I know the passage you refer to and it seems to be more of a lesson that he was not able to fully teach them. In the passage he tells them if they do not have a sword to sell their cloak and buy one. I will have to do some research to this but if I understand the context right running around without your cloak and carrying a sword might be quite odd (kind of like running around in your underwear with a gun). Again I need to do a little more looking into the passage to make sure this is the one you are talking about.

I will see if I can get some further info on that passage but let me go back to your OT examples. God was the same back then as he is now but his relationship to us was much different. Without the sacrifice of Christ God used Violence. He still used force sometimes but the new covenant in the blood takes us from being his people to his children, and that is a big distinction.

More to come later, I just got home from work.
 
Shlemele

That’s a funny graphic example.

For those wars insofar as being initiated, I would agree that Divine Favor would be usually inappropriate. For those involved in the necessary defense from an unsolicited aggressor… that appears quite different.

Claiming divine favor is quite different from having it. Each war would have its peculiar characteristics insofar as what actually started the ball rolling.

The Crusades are a unique sort of battles in history… authorized?? Well, the pilgrim of those days took his life in his hands to go to any Christian site if it was controlled by the Muslim. The people were very hard up and brigands were everywhere… especially on the road. Initially the Knights Templar were created to provide protection for these pilgrims. Pilgrims were often not armed according to one account… I’m not justifying everything that happened, but the initial intent was authorized defense… Unless one wants to say the pilgrims had no business trespassing on Muslim land… and to be fair… I believe that could be said from the Muslim point of view. What did God want done? Its hard to say, but war certainly was not a part of it I think… but then I’m only a student
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Turn the other Cheek? I see mention of this before… and it presents a lot of unanswered questions in its simplicity.

To do so when standing for the Faith or being persecuted as a Christian or ? appears to have solid validity context.

To allow a bully to be a bully however would encourage the behavior so in that case it is an act of charity to stop him. It is also necessary to stand in order to know you are capable of doing so… so that the decision for non-violence is made from reason and not because cowardice is rearing a ruling head.

I’d like to see a clear and holy treatment of this area but as yet have not found any… (and have not had time to do much looking so far)
 
I posted this on another thread and turning the other cheek also has some cultural implications;
But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also
If someone strikes you on the right cheek in that culture they would have done it with their left hand. The left hand was reserved for women and slaves so a man hitting another man with the left hand was demeaning. Note that the passage does not say let him hit you again on that same cheek. It says to turn the other. By turning to him the left cheek you force him to hit you with his right hand and therefore strike you as an equal.

There are some other great examples of non-violent resistance in the sermon on the mount as well;
And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
In Hebrew culture nakedness was shameful, but not necessarily for the one who was naked. According to the law of that day a man could sue you and take your tunic but not your cloak. Without your cloak you were essentially in your underwear (see the above post about selling your cloak). Now you would essentially walk out of the court in your undies. The difference though was that the shame was placed on the man who CAUSED the nakedness, implying that this man has caused you to live in an impoverished state. Again we see a cultural meaning that is lost on us unless we understand the context of the days Jesus lived.
If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
This verse is a great example of passive resistance. In the days of Jesus Roman soldiers could force anyone to carry a burden for up to a mile, however if they were caught making someone carry something a foot more they were criminally liable. Think what it would happen if all of a sudden soldiers were facing fines and imprisonment because people were carrying things too far. This is the heart of passive resistance.

Passive resistance is not letting people walk all over you, it is creating a third way to deal with injustice. Passive resistance makes people face the evils for what they are and not white washing them. Even though Gandhi was not Christian he is a great example of what can be done with passive resistance.
To allow a bully to be a bully however would encourage the behavior so in that case it is an act of charity to stop him.
What better act of charity can there be than to take his anger and return only love. How many bullies do you know who can continue to do violence to someone who does not reciprocate. Does it mean that you’ll get hurt, yes. Does God command us to love our enemies, yes. Can you love someone while returning their anger with violence, I don’t believe so (again open to debate but it is my opinion). Again Gandhi is a great example of this. if you watch the movie you see time and time again that every blow you take from your enemy draws them to you if it is taken in love.

On the subject of the Muslim invasions… that is tough. I still believe though that the taking of life is never the only option. How can you bear witness to someone if their brothers blood is on your hands? I will have to ask my father but I remember stories of missionaries who went to an uncivilized area only to have the people they were to spread the good news to kill them. The witness of these men dying planted seeds for the next missionaries who brought the news of Christ to the entire village. I’m not saying that God requires us all to die to save others. Sometimes though it is the only way and we have to be prepared to make that sacrifice.
 
There are a lot of aspects to this issue… turning the other cheek…

A couple of years ago, I attended a seminar in which one of the speakers was making the point that the offended person will have less bitterness and anger if he or she turns the other cheek. As an example, if you strike my cheek and if I then turn away from you and look in the opposite direction, I will no longer be looking at you. For all intents and purposes you will no longer be in my field of vision and I can get on with my life, instead of dwelling on and intensifying the insult to me.

The speaker was referring to the example of a former business associate who stole some mailing lists and proprietary material. The speaker spend a lot of money moving to new space, and went on with life, just ignored the treacherous former partner. Didn’t sue. Didn’t strike back. Didn’t spread calumny or detraction. The former partner withered and went out of business, having nothing original or creative to offer. The speaker did just fine.

Will this always happen? No. At least not right away. Not in that way. But if we visit the Tabernacle, and just lay the whole mess at God’s feet directly and completely and tell Him, “You can fix this mess; I can’t and I leave it for You.” And then move forward. You will, over the years, looking back, be amazed at what innovative solutions God will provide.

Practice makes perfect. Try it. Work at it. Think about it. Pray over it.
 
Al

I love your situational example. Thank you

Do you have any for a physical abuse?
 
Mike Cooksey:
Al

I love your situational example. Thank you

Do you have any for a physical abuse?
Depends on how real or hypothetical it is.

The BEST (“win-win”) approach is physical separation and de-escalation. NO future communication or contact. Severance. Complete change of venue. Complete change of habitual patterns. Complete change of social interaction. [e.g., if you go to a bar and it gets out of hand, you leave and NEVER return. Avoid the other patrons in all social situations. Find something else to do with spare time.]

If there is some family connection, it obviously gets more complicated. Not a simple situation, as are all of these Moral Theology cases.

I STRONGLY recommend Germain Grisez’s book “Difficult Moral Questions (volume 3)” 1997 Fransiscan Press. It is superb. Includes 200 sample case discussions of “everyday” cases. Gives a point of departure for discussion and thought.
 
Before I go on I don’t want anyone to think that I am attacking the Catholic church. I do however want to address something in the excerpt that I do not know as a pacifist how to accept. The part that says it is not necessary for salvation to avoid killing another man in self defense. So what I understand here is that if it within my power to spare the life of my attacker and I choose not to do so it’s ok, not the best thing to do mind you but not the same as murder.
If it’s actually within your power to spare the life of your attacker and still carry out your other duties (protection of yourself and your family), then I would argue that it is indeed a sin to go ahead and kill. Not only that, if it is clear that that is what you did, it is a civil crime even in jurisdictions that are quite permissive about self-defense.

I recently had to take a class in the self-defense law of my state (Kentucky, USA), and killing unnecessarily does not fall under justified self-defense. Of course, you have to take into account your likely mental state and knowledge at the time. If you know that you can stop the threat without killing the assailant, but you kill anyway, then you are both a criminal and a sinner. However, very few people in that situation are going to have that kind of certainty.

I don’t think the Catechism is trying to defend the person who kills unnecessarily and claims self-defense. Rather, it is saying that if you defend yourself reasonably and the attacker dies thereby, you have committed no sin.
Let me use this in an example I have heard many times (and will address later in another context). It’s late at night and you wake up to the sound of a criminal in your house. You quietly sneak up behind him and on the counter there is a skillet and a knife. Thinking this man seeks to do you and your family harm you grab the knife and mortally wound him. The option of knocking him unconscious was there but you chose to kill him. According to the Catechism this is not ideal but it is also not a sin.
First of all, the options are not as stark as you present them. Knocking someone unconscious without lingering harm by a blow to the head is not as easy a thing as we see in popular culture. The skillet blow could also kill, and the assailant could survive the knife wound.

This is what I have recently been taught, though granted it deals more with the practicalities and legalities of self-defense rather than the morality. If one is to the point of using force in self-defense, one is not trying either to kill or to wound. Focusing on either one is counterproductive. The purpose of defensive force is to stop the threat.

If you can escape the threat without putting yourself or another innocent at greater risk, then you do that.

If you can defuse the threat with talk or just the threat of force, that’s great – but don’t bluff. You don’t hold someone at gunpoint (say) unless you are willing to pull the trigger and possibly end that person’s life, should the threat resume.

If you show resistance and the assailant runs for it, you win. Do not pursue and most certainly do not use deadly force at that point. It’s never self-defense if the other guy is running away.

If, in your judgment at the time, the only way to prevent serious injury or death to yourself or someone else is to use force against the threatening person, then do so. But again, the goal is to stop the threat, not to punish the guy for daring to attack you. If the guy falls down or runs away wounded, you don’t get to keep whacking, stabbing, or shooting him. If he remains an active threat, then you may employ additional force. Killing the assailant is never the goal, though it may be what ultimately happens. Likewise, keeping the assailant alive cannot be your active goal, unless you have reliable non-lethal means of stopping the threat at your disposal.

In short, your goal in a self-defense situation is to keep yourself and other threatened people alive and reasonably well, by whatever means are at your disposal (including entirely non-violent ones). You’re not out to hurt or kill anyone, and would prefer that the whole situation were not happening. But the assailant has decided to make it happen, and so what happens to him cannot be your immediate concern.

Usagi
 
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