Virtue and the Commandments

[ZenFred]

I wrote the following in a Judaism forum, but I think you all would be just as able to help. Catholics also follow the spirit of the commandments and believe we are called to a life of virtue.

I confess I’ve been studying some philosophy lately and have drifted a bit from Judaism per se. I really love Spinoza and the stoics.

I definitely believe the purpose of life is to seek Truth/God (love of God) and to act with virtue/righteousness (love of neighbor).

But how do we know what is moral and how to pursue being righteous? It’s not as obvious as it seems once you consider how many people think they are doing the right thing but end up being harmful to others like Nationalism or rationalized selfishness disguised as morality. As one orthodox Rabbi says even monkies love their children, we have a much greater opportunity.

Can we get our morality directly from the Torah and the 613 mitzvot? Most non-Jews balk at this but I think this shouldn’t be overlooked. If the moral principles of the Torah understood properly along with the guidance of the Rabbis is an excellent place to start, you really won’t go wrong and at worst will perform unnecessary by not harmful deeds. This is a strong argument that something is moral just because God says it is and He is the source of all goodness/morality.

Or do we rely on reason/natural Law as revealed by common sense, reason and maybe prayer? Seems to be a Reform position that you may test scripture and the commandments against reason. If God is the creator and sustainer of the universe, we should be able to discern some of His will thru observation and reason.

A related question, are prayers and ritual observances moral actions? If there is a God who hears and answers prayer then yes and especially if God commands us to perform these. What if God is more of Ein Sof or the God of Spinoza and less an antropromorphic dirty? Are prayers waisted time that’s could be spent making an actual difference? How would we know?

 

[reggieM]

The Catholic approach to these questions is quite a lot different … we wouldn’t answer them from a Jewish perspective or a purely philosophical approach (Stoic, Aristotelian, etc).

 

[ZenFred]

The Catholic approach to these questions is quite a lot different … we wouldn’t answer them from a Jewish perspective or a purely philosophical approach (Stoic, Aristotelian, etc).

That’s okay. Tillich says that philosophy asks the questions and theology provides the answers.

How would Catholics approach the question of what it means to be moral?

 

[reggieM]

That’s okay. Tillich says that philosophy asks the questions and theology provides the answers.

How would Catholics approach the question of what it means to be moral?

Well, we could start with the approach you suggest - and St. Thomas Aquinas goes into a lot of detail on the classical structure of virtues (Cardinal Virtues and Capital Vices, etc).

I definitely believe the purpose of life is to seek Truth/God (love of God) and to act with virtue/righteousness (love of neighbor).

Those are the two great commandments. We seek God and also seek to be like Him - that is living the virtues.

But how do we know what is moral and how to pursue being righteous? It’s not as obvious as it seems once you consider how many people think they are doing the right thing but end up being harmful to others like Nationalism or rationalized selfishness disguised as morality.

Yes, exactly. We might think we’re doing good, but is it really what God wants? If not, we will be conflicting with God’s will and actually, potentially, doing wrong.

Can we get our morality directly from the Torah and the 613 mitzvot?

Here’s where the Catholic view would differ.
Yes, there is natural law. This is a moral code that can be accessed through reason alone. As St. Paul said, the gentiles (of his time) knew the same Law that his people, the Jews knew. It was not at the detail of the 613 mitzvot, but the commandments guided human behavior.

However, the difference in the Catholic view is really … Jesus.
Like the slogan: WWJD. We now can see God, incarnated. We no longer need to imagine what God is like or what He would do – we have the human example to follow.

The reason this is important is not only to be able to exernalize and visualize what the moral life is, in practical terms, but that Jesus calls us to a higher moral path, something more than just what the natural law gives. He taught non-intuitive precepts - ideas that transcend what we would discover through reason alone. This is why the Catholic message “was foolishness” to the Greeks who had mastered the morality of the natural law.

Or do we rely on reason/natural Law as revealed by common sense, reason and maybe prayer? Seems to be a Reform position that you may test scripture and the commandments against reason. If God is the creator and sustainer of the universe, we should be able to discern some of His will thru observation and reason.

So yes, not observation and reason alone - but with prayer we discern God’s will. This means we have to enter into a supernatural, mystic communication with God. We have to learn how to discern his messages to us.

In the Catholic view, we have a moral code that comes from Jesus’ teachings – and can be traced back to His Life as recorded in the Gospels, along with what the apostles learned from Him.
To make progress in the moral life, we have the Sacrament of Confession - with a priest who has the supernatural power to absolve our sins, and give guidance on living the moral life. This is immense in power for the person who accepts it.

We live our life seeking to practice and improve in virtue.

The first and biggest obstacle to this is exactly what the Stoics fell into. They acquired virtues - in order to improve themselves, with their own well-being as the final goal. The trap here is Pride. It’s living for the self. Ulitimately, it is self as the highest authority. So, the first virtue is humility. That is, humility before the greatness of God. The Catholic view finds that in the Old Testament faith certainly, but we would see it at a much higher level in the humiliation of Christ. We see God, coming to earth, born in a stable, living an obscure ordinary life – then teaching, being ridiculed and rejected, and ultimately killed. That is humility that goes far beyond what anyone would have imagined before - although there are precedents in the prophet Joseph (very Christlike path) and Jeremiah, among others. The suffering servant.

But there’s obviously a lot more here - I didn’t plan out a response, I’m just typing off the top of my head …

But we also have the transcendent examples of the Catholic saints.
There are too many to mention, but we can see the life of Christ, incarnated (so to speak) in saints through the ages, who’s authority is made known by God in their miraculous powers and spiritual teaching.

A related question, are prayers and ritual observances moral actions? If there is a God who hears and answers prayer then yes and especially if God commands us to perform these. What if God is more of Ein Sof or the God of Spinoza and less an antropromorphic dirty? Are prayers waisted time that’s could be spent making an actual difference? How would we know?

 

[ZenFred]

Thanks!!! That was really helpful. I realized my question was not clearly put but you did a good job addressing the core issue. I asked a catholic friend of mine who is a professor at Ave Maria University and he gave me a reading list of:

1. Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics
2. Thomas Aquinas’s Prima Secundae (Summa Theologiae, first part of the second part)
3. Pope John Paul II, Veritatis Splendor
   So that’s along the lines of what you’re saying and should be a good place to start.

Aristotle makes a great point that virtue shouldn’t be confused with “honor” or the respect of others or self-image of being a good person. We need to be sure we are seeking true righteousness not the approval of men, many times these are confused in faith communities, especially American mainline Protestantism.

Back to your post, you make a really good point on Jesus. Indeed he is a great moral teacher and this is the primary subject of his teachings. I know a lot of non-believers attempt to dismiss Jesus as saying he has good “moral” teachings and moving on as if reading chicken soup for the soul. That’s what I love about the stoics, particularly Seneca, they so rightly remind us that our lives are short but provide ample opportunity to do good and seek Truth, we shouldn’t waste it on anything less.
So please don’t think I’m treating that so lightly. The only purpose in being alive is to seek virtue/the will of God, so a moral teacher is a teacher of the essential and only significant aspect of life.

The question of prayer was answered by my professor friend. Scripture is clear that God hears prayers and knows our thoughts, both good and bad. I may have uncertainty, but I say that God doesn’t hear prayers I would need reject all of scripture. It’s helpful to me to take a step back and look at the big picture, I might doubt the value of prayers in the moment but I certainty can’t accept a world without a real presence or compassion of God. So He must hear our prayers.

I think you and I have talked about previous threads and I recently posted about my doubts and how it doesn’t matter what I believe. Spinoza was really helpful there. I need to trust intuitive knowledge of God and His truth, even if my rational mind or even emotions don’t always comprehend it. I used to say “in my heart” I know the Church/Christianity is good and not wrong but I could never match that with mind. What I think I need to do is trust my intuition, what I know in the core of my being/throughout my life and not just in my limited ability to reason (which is typically parroting the last book I read).

Thanks, sorry for the long reply.
God’s peace and I’ll pray for you!!!

 

[reggieM]

Thanks!!! That was really helpful. I realized my question was not clearly put but you did a good job addressing the core issue. I asked a catholic friend of mine who is a professor at Ave Maria University and he gave me a reading list of:

1. Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics
2. Thomas Aquinas’s Prima Secundae (Summa Theologiae, first part of the second part)
3. Pope John Paul II, Veritatis Splendor
   So that’s along the lines of what you’re saying and should be a good place to start.

That’s an impressive reading list. If you make your way through all of that and can absorb most of it – you’ll be a lot smarter about these things than I ever will be! I love St. John Paul II but I have not been able to connect with his writings. Pope Benedict is different - he speaks to me more directly. But both are great. I read the works of Dom Garrigou-Lagrange, a brilliant Thomist theologian and spiritual writer. Sadly, ignored and forgotten after Vatican II, but his books are still in print.

In any case, you’re working hard on this and it’s great to see! There are virtues of the intellect, of course - and dilligence in study is one of them. Honesty and openness to challenges are essentiial also and I can see you are willing to deal with things that bring you out of your comfort-zone. Fortitude and courage come into play there also.

Back to your post, you make a really good point on Jesus. Indeed he is a great moral teacher and this is the primary subject of his teachings. I know a lot of non-believers attempt to dismiss Jesus as saying he has good “moral” teachings and moving on as if reading chicken soup for the soul.

Right - this is a problem and Jesus argued against it. He knew he could be dismissed as being “a good man” - like many others. But what He was saying was that moral goodness is not the end in itself. It is a means to something greater. Even righteousness is merely the pathway, necessary yes, but still just a preparatory-state for a higher life, which is “partaking in divine union”. So, working on virtues makes us imitators of God, and as we do that, He more easily comes to us. We become friends with God - part of His family (very relevant to the Chosen People, but it is not ethnicity that does this but rather sincerity, purity of heart and, as you said - using the precious time we have for the highest good).

The question of prayer was answered by my professor friend. Scripture is clear that God hears prayers and knows our thoughts, both good and bad. I may have uncertainty, but I say that God doesn’t hear prayers I would need reject all of scripture. It’s helpful to me to take a step back and look at the big picture, I might doubt the value of prayers in the moment but I certainty can’t accept a world without a real presence or compassion of God. So He must hear our prayers.

Absolutely. We have to take Him at His word. He hears and answers.

I need to trust intuitive knowledge of God and His truth, even if my rational mind or even emotions don’t always comprehend it. I used to say “in my heart” I know the Church/Christianity is good and not wrong but I could never match that with mind. What I think I need to do is trust my intuition, what I know in the core of my being/throughout my life and not just in my limited ability to reason (which is typically parroting the last book I read).

This is such a great point and you expressed it well. It’s exactly right - we have to go with our intuition. God made it that way. Philosophy is important, of course. It sets the stage, builds a mental structure, gives confidence. But in the end, we’re just cogitating. Syllogisms will add up to something. We give ourselves a good, intellectual work out. The brain is a muscle and we need to use it – and think things through. All of that is great!
However, the brain/mind/soul is more than just a muscle, working on syllogisms. It is our connection to a spiritual life that is transcendent. That’s where we get uncomfortable. We all do it - the great prophets didn’t want to go there either. Moses balked at his calling. As did Jeremiah, complaining that he was too young for that.
But ultimately, that is where God is calling. It’s the Leap of Faith. It’s frightening. We have to let go of the comfort we have from thinking, arguments and rational conclusions. Jesus called Peter to get out of the boat and walk on the water. Peter responded intuitively - with the heart. Thinking “yes, Lord - you are walking on the water, You have the power, I’m just going to do this!” So, he took the leap of faith, out of the boat. Suddenly, however he was standing on the waves, too far to turn back – he looked around and the brain kicked in (and I imagine him thinking) “Hey - I am standing out here on the water! This is insane!” – of course, at that moment he began to sink and Jesus pulled him up.

But that’s where we are. We’re called to make that leap. We have to leave behind the comfort of our own rationality. it’s not that we’re doing something irrational, but that whatever we do in answering God’s call, no matter how simple or ordinary - we’re doing it not because we reasoned out the best path, but because we believe that He wants it. That’s what prayer requires. We put our time in - it’s an act of faith. We believe that He is there and He is listening and will answer.

Thanks, sorry for the long reply.
God’s peace and I’ll pray for you!!!

Thank you Fred! The same to you and I will certain pray for you also!