Voting

[Mustard]

What is the Church’s position on voting? I’m from Ireland, and after same sex “marriage” was passed with such a large degree of support I was so disgusted by my own people that I no longer consider myself Irish. I immediately stopped voting as I consider that this is not my country and I have no further interest in its future. On a wider front, I could say the same about the entire EU.

Is it permissible to withdraw one’s loyalty and approval in this manner, or does the Church consider it sinful?

 

[Bookcat]

We are yes obliged to vote.

Seek to do the good and lessen the evil.

Do not give up -but fight on. An an Irish work for reform.

 

[Confiteor_Deo]

You should continue to vote. The Church says that we must do so in the CCC:

**2239 **It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one’s country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.

**2240 **Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country…

 

[ShrodingersCat]

I’m Irish. That doesn’t seem like a great reason for not voting. After all, almost every first world country in the world would have done the same thing, given the chance. Plus, the Yes side ran an excellent campaign and the No side didn’t really have any resources to do so. Bearing in mind that people generally are very superficial when it comes to deciding issues like these, the No side didn’t really stand a chance against the “Love and Equality” emotional pleas of the Yes side.

I mean even though I voted no, only my closest friends knew that because I was afraid to say it to anyone, unless directly asked. Even when I was directly asked, I felt like my explanation for why did not make sense to the people I was explaining it to.

Regardless, abortion is a far more serious issue and we should keep voting to do our best to keep out politicians who might be pro-choice. It’s mostly a “best of a bad lot” scenario, but it’s better than nothing.

The “Yes to Life” campaign are currently running canvassing throughout the country, similar to what the “Yes” campaign in MarRef did. It’s worth getting involved in because really it’s our only hope to get to people before the pro-choice groups do the same thing and we end up with abortion in the country too.

 

[pianistclare]

Vote. Don’t roll over. Don’t hand over your future.

 

[GEddie]

In an electoral system, if the virtuous do not vote, they hand governance over to the venal.

I feel your pain, as my nation is coming up on a Presidential campaign in which either candidate will force me to hold my nose. I might have to flip a coin, but to my mind, voting is a duty.

(J/K about the coin).

ICXC NIKA

 

[pianistclare]

In an electoral system, if the virtuous do not vote, they hand governance over to the venal.

I feel your pain, as my nation is coming up on a Presidential campaign in which either candidate will force me to hold my nose. I might have to flip a coin, but to my mind, voting is a duty.

(J/K about the coin).

ICXC NIKA

Quite right.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

The Church predates democracy and voting. The early Christians took it for granted that they were living in a hostile pagan world. Today, I believe that Christians do have a responsibility to fight the Culture of Death to the best of their ability. That does include, at the very least, voting.

 

[esieffe]

Well… I was going to sit this one out. I have never done that before. Then I read a horrible news story today that even would disgust even most liberals. Then there was the story about how someone donated millions to PP. That did it.

I thought to myself, “Im going to have to vote, though it is going to make me sick.” It is between very bad, and insidious, so I guess I will have to vote for the very bad.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Well… I was going to sit this one out. I have never done that before. Then I read a horrible news story today that even would disgust even most liberals. Then there was the story about how someone donated millions to PP. That did it.

I thought to myself, “Im going to have to vote, though it is going to make me sick.” It is between very bad, and insidious, so I guess I will have to vote for the very bad.

Or third party.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

We are a nation that has a government – not the other way around.
And this makes us special among the nations of the Earth.
Our government has no power except that granted it by the people.
It is time to check and reverse the growth of government which shows
signs of having grown beyond the consent of the governed.”

~ Ronald Reagan

 

[GEddie]

We are a nation that has a government – not the other way around.
And this makes us special among the nations of the Earth.
Our government has no power except that granted it by the people.
It is time to check and reverse the growth of government which shows
signs of having grown beyond the consent of the governed.”

~ Ronald Reagan

If we had someone new like him, we’d be sitting pretty.

But we don’t, and are headed toward governance of the people, by the venal, for the most venal.

So all we can do is to vote when the chance arrives, hold our noses when we have to, and ride herd on those who win.

ICXC NIKA

 

[E_7]

You should continue to vote. The Church says that we must do so in the CCC:

I was going to vote, but not for the seat of President. BUT, after reading that teaching, I’ve changed my mind. I’ll vote for President. Thanks.

 

[v21337304]

Take the same sex scenario. If you do not vote against it, you are actually increasing the percentage of those in favour, Therefore in such cases you should vote.

The problem comes when you have two candidates who are obviously advocating evil things. How can one vote in such a case? They are both wrong. What should I do in such a case?

 

[PaulfromIowa]

The Church predates democracy and voting. The early Christians took it for granted that they were living in a hostile pagan world. Today, I believe that Christians do have a responsibility to fight the Culture of Death to the best of their ability. That does include, at the very least, voting.

If I may elaborate on my earlier post, the Church has only relatively recently embraced democracy as the best political system. The Church was often less than sympathetic to modern democracy until Christian Democratic parties emerged to reconcile the Church with republicanism. The modern Catechism does teach that there is a responsibility for Catholics to vote, with an informed conscience. Note that Pope John Paul II, who promulgated that Catechism in the 1980’s, had lived his adult life in Communist Poland, where he never had a chance to vote.

I believe that we do have a responsibility to preserve the Christian ideal of constitutional democracy to the best of our ability. The enemies of the Church are very politically active. If Christians opt out, we are choosing to give them more power.

 

[exnihilo]

I don’t think you have an obligation to vote and voting isn’t a meaningful act. Voting is the best tool for subjugating people. Citizens will accept all sorts of injustices if only they can feel they have a say in things.

In any political system there is a small power elite that really controls things. In any system the leaders pay some attention to the will of the people but this in proportion to the people’s ability to resist the system. In every system the ruled outnumber, often greatly, the rulers and their enforcers.

I say voting is meaningless because elections almost never come down to a single vote. This is certainly true for major election in western countries. A single vote may make a difference in a very small town race, but ironically those are the kind of elections voters care the least about.

There is never an actual true vote. When elections are close there is almost always a recount. What I’ve observed is that the vote tally is always different for each recount. Therefore it follows that in some recount someone’s vote was ignored. The courts always ultimately decide the winner of close elections.

I think far more important than voting is trying to convince people to desire true goodness. If a large enough group of people want what is really good then the political system is more likely to reflect it. This should be obvious since you’ll never get goodness from voting if most people don’t want that. I think private voting is of very little value whereas public proclamation of and teaching the truth is very valuable.

If I may elaborate on my earlier post, the Church has only relatively recently embraced democracy as the best political system. The Church was often less than sympathetic to modern democracy until Christian Democratic parties emerged to reconcile the Church with republicanism. The modern Catechism does teach that there is a responsibility for Catholics to vote, with an informed conscience. Note that Pope John Paul II, who promulgated that Catechism in the 1980’s, had lived his adult life in Communist Poland, where he never had a chance to vote.

The Church certainly has embraced democracy. In fact it seems to me an oddity of the Catechism that it almost assumes Catholics live in a western democracy.

Why do you think JP II never had a chance to vote? Communist Poland most certainly had voting. We’re clerics excluded or JP II specifically? Universal suffrage and voting in communists countries is one reason I find passages in the Catechism about voting to be odd. I would think it obvious that refusing to participate in a communist system is much more impactful than voting.

 

[GEddie]

I don’t think you have an obligation to vote and voting isn’t a meaningful act. Voting is the best tool for subjugating people. Citizens will accept all sorts of injustices if only they can feel they have a say in things.

In any political system there is a small power elite that really controls things. In any system the leaders pay some attention to the will of the people but this in proportion to the people’s ability to resist the system. In every system the ruled outnumber, often greatly, the rulers and their enforcers.

I say voting is meaningless because elections almost never come down to a single vote. This is certainly true for major election in western countries. A single vote may make a difference in a very small town race, but ironically those are the kind of elections voters care the least about.

There is never an actual true vote. When elections are close there is almost always a recount. What I’ve observed is that the vote tally is always different for each recount. Therefore it follows that in some recount someone’s vote was ignored. The courts always ultimately decide the winner of close elections.

I think far more important than voting is trying to convince people to desire true goodness. If a large enough group of people want what is really good then the political system is more likely to reflect it. This should be obvious since you’ll never get goodness from voting if most people don’t want that. I think private voting is of very little value whereas public proclamation of and teaching the truth is very valuable.

The Church certainly has embraced democracy. In fact it seems to me an oddity of the Catechism that it almost assumes Catholics live in a western democracy.

Why do you think JP II never had a chance to vote? Communist Poland most certainly had voting. We’re clerics excluded or JP II specifically? Universal suffrage and voting in communists countries is one reason I find passages in the Catechism about voting to be odd. I would think it obvious that refusing to participate in a communist system is much more impactful than voting.

I didn’t know about JP2 and voting, but my understanding of elections in the CCCPsphere were that they were not only rigged, they were watched. He probably had to fear that if he followed his conscience, he’d be taking an extended “pilgrimage” to the northeast; and then what would happen to the kids of Poland?

Here in the old 50, we do not have to worry about that. Yet.

As to the CCC and democracy, remember that admiration for democracy (in s sense) goes back to Aristotle. Despite its flaws, representational republicanism does a better job of checking everybody’s venality (by using it as a balance) than more traditional forms of governance.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Rosebud77]

What is the Church’s position on voting? I’m from Ireland, and after same sex “marriage” was passed with such a large degree of support I was so disgusted by my own people that I no longer consider myself Irish. I immediately stopped voting as I consider that this is not my country and I have no further interest in its future. On a wider front, I could say the same about the entire EU.

Is it permissible to withdraw one’s loyalty and approval in this manner, or does the Church consider it sinful?

Greetings from Co Kerry… I could not vote in that referendum as I am not an Irish national And the vote was not a landslide. 60 - 40 I think…

Because of some voluntary work I do I was in a position afterwards for some to be very open and frank about is and the woman who told me with agony in her eyes that for the first time in her life she had not voted and why pulled me up short

So many like her were torn between their faith and their love of gay family members. Another woman squared up saying that God loves everyone and wants everyone to be happy
It was their love of others, of family members, which is such a strong thing here.

A few years ago a man i met when we were both seeking mass just after Christmas spoke of this and said, in such a loving tome. " Ah let them marry" … Outside the Friary !!

I know; poorly catechised and that is our fault surely and some have said to me since that they were disappointed that our priests did not speak out more.

It all pulled me up short as I did not have a ready reply… Since then I have prayed it through and the answer to “God loves everyone"is surely, " Yes He DOES, but does everyone love God?” with all the scriptural backing we have for this.

It is really for us to embrace and teach surely? Not to walk away. That campaign was engineered so skilfully deliberately playing on the Irish family tradition. The one place that voted resounding NO was the county where the grandstanding had not happened …

And we need to support each other, I am currently blessed with a landlord of deep faith and morality and we talk of these matters.

There is one other aspect. that regrettably the Church here has lost so much ground and credibility and respect via the child abise which makes it all the more vital that we the laity speak out. Had I known that lady who was so torn the week before the vote i m sute she would have added to the no vote

And yes we have the abortion issue and I will not be able to vote in that either so please… vote !
PS I can vote in local and national elections but not in any referendum.maddening when I have been 0ver 25 years here.

 

[BornInMarch]

What is the Church’s position on voting? I’m from Ireland, and after same sex “marriage” was passed with such a large degree of support I was so disgusted by my own people that I no longer consider myself Irish. I immediately stopped voting as I consider that this is not my country and I have no further interest in its future. On a wider front, I could say the same about the entire EU.

Is it permissible to withdraw one’s loyalty and approval in this manner, or does the Church consider it sinful?

You’re not going to make Ireland more holy by doing that.

Remember that if your country passes a law you consider unjust, it just means YOU need to vote and get involved in the political process. Go on marches, organize meetings, etc.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

In any political system there is a small power elite that really controls things.

Egad! Is it the Springfield Stonecutters? I’ll bet it is the Springfield Stonecutters!

I say voting is meaningless because elections almost never come down to a single vote.

The logic of that deduction escapes me.

There is never an actual true vote.

What’s this? A variant of the “No true Scotsman”?

I think far more important than voting is trying to convince people to desire true goodness.

And when you have convinced people to desire true goodness, they will go out and make it so by voting!

If a large enough group of people want what is really good then the political system is more likely to reflect it.

Yes, and they will do that by voting.

This should be obvious since you’ll never get goodness from voting if most people don’t want that.

But if most people don’t want it, it would not pass a fair vote either.

When elections are close there is almost always a recount. What I’ve observed is that the vote tally is always different for each recount. Therefore it follows that in some recount someone’s vote was ignored. The courts always ultimately decide the winner of close elections.

That is only if the recounts differ as to who one. If the recounts declare the same winner, the people have decided - not the courts.

The Church certainly has embraced democracy. In fact it seems to me an oddity of the Catechism that it almost assumes Catholics live in a western democracy.

Which section of the catechism gives you that idea?