War in the Heavens

[padraig]

I have recently returned from Medugorje and from Our Lady of All Nations in Amsterdam. I have no doubt that Cardinal Ratzinger was right when he called these Marian times. The Holy Father Himself has repeatedly put Mary at the very forefront of his Pontificate.
Jesus told us to read the signs of the times. The signs of the times are these; that both Mary and Satan are engaged in Apocalyptic battle shown in Chapter 13 of the Book of Revelations.
Times are speeding up. Much of what Saint Louis Marie Grignion De Montford prophesied in True Devotion to the BVM are coming to pass. On the one hand we see the acceleration of great evil, such as abortion, wars, religious dtrife and on the other the hand of Mary in such Church recognised sites as Betania an Venezuala.

 

[puzzleannie]

Did Cardinal Ratzinger say this, or is this your own reflection? I doubt very much if the good cardinal called on the alleged events and Betania and Medjugore as evidence of this being a Marian generation, since these visions have not been approved by the local bishops or the Vatican.

 

[padraig]

In 1984 Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, the head of the Roman Catholic Church’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), declared that, “one of the signs of our times is that the announcements of ‘Marian Apparitions’ are multiplying all over the world. For example, reports are arriving from Africa and from other continents at the section of the Congregation that is competent to deal with such reports.” He made this observation as a comment on the many reports of the appearance of the Blessed Virgin Mary to individuals located in a wide variety of countries, cultures and political systems.
This seems pretty clear cut to me, what about you?

As regards the Apparitions in Betania the Diocesan Bishop has, in fact given his approval as follows:

Bishop Pio Bello Ricardo stated:"After having studied repeatedly the apparitions of the Most Holy Virgin in Betania, and having begged the Lord earnestly for spiritual discernment, I declare that in my judgement said apparitions are authentic and have a supernatural character. I therefore approve, officially, that the site where the apparitions have occurred be considered as sacred…"

This although you clearly state that the local Bishop had** not** given approval.
You go on to state that Medugorje had not been given Church approval, but then I never said they had.
On the other hand Our Lady of All Nations** has** received Church approval, through the local Bishop.
Returning to Medugorje the Church has adopted neither an antagonistic or negative verdict. The attitude is one of cautious waiting and weighing matters.

It is wise before popping off a reply to a post like this firstly to read what the writer has actually said and secondly to be sure of one’s facts before making them public. It saves embarassment.

 

[Petrina]

Betania has been approved.

Medjugorje is still “under investigation.”

 

[puzzleannie]

padraig:

It is wise before popping off a reply to a post like this firstly to read what the writer has actually said and secondly to be sure of one’s facts before making them public. It saves embarassment.

If asking a legitimate question for clarification sounds like popping off to you, I am sorry. But from your quote, Cardinal Ratzinger did not express approval of any specific apparitions, which answers my question, so I thank you for the information. I am inclined to agree with him that Mary is appearing to many people all around the world, but since in most of the recorded approved apparitions Mary instructed the seers not to tell anyone, or to tell only a priest, my guess is that the ones we hear the most about, that get the most publicity, are the ones least likely to be genuine. That is an opinion. On forums people are allowed to state opinions. If they were not, it would not be a forum it would be a polemic.

 

[serendipity]

I thought Annie’s question was legitimate. The answer was not very clear in the initial post. Thank you for providing the source, because it is something I want to read.

I don’t think that all the apparitions are genuine, but I also think that a good many are. There are just too many for all to be fake. I will defer to the Church’s judgement on this issue. I do take great consolation in the fact that so Mary (and some times Jesus) speaks to so many in such great times of trouble.

The ones that are usually judged as “genuine,” by the Church seem to demonstrate many similar characteristics: like obeying the words of a confessor, even if the confessor is incredulous; conveying messages that do no contradict church teachings; occurring before a major traumatic event like a war; those who hear the messages are often very young, and generally have had little formal schooling - people not normally deemd to be able to make up the theological concepts that they convey or express in their writings. Those who receive the messages do not feel worthy to transmit them and are the epitome of humility.

 

[padraig]

In Ann’s original post, Ann stated that, on the question of Betania it had, 'not been approved by the local bishops or the Vatican.'
Neither yourself, Serendipity, nor Ann have acknowleged this to be mistaken, perhaps it is reasonable that you should as a point of fact . Placing a post before being sure of one’s facts sounds a lot like ‘popping off’ to me.
As regards Cardinal Ratzinger’s statement Ann said, ‘Did Cardinal Ratzinger say this, or is this your own reflection?’
The very clear implication being, I believe, that I was somehow twisting the Cardinal’s words to my own advantage. A question is indeed legitimate, Serendipity, an implied distortion of the Cardinal’s words is not. This is rather more, in my books than, ’ asking a legitimate question '.
However I agree with much else you say in your post. Many of the contemporary apparitions are,I believe, genuine and have received the approval of the Church, many are not.
People are, of course allowed on forums as you say, Ann,** 'asking a legitimate question '.** But when they state something as a fact which is simply untrue, then other people, as a fact have a right to state that they are wrong. When again they imply that someone is distorting the truth it is reasonable if there should be an effort to clear matters up.
I am only sorry that in neither case, Ann, did you feel able to bring yourself to acknowledge your mistake.

 

[puzzleannie]

for the record, I did look at a couple of reliable websites that track apparitions, and Betania was not noted as one that is approved (either was Amsterdam). It the situation is changed since that information was posted, I apologize. I did not “pop off” without attempting to ascertain the truth.

I was endeavoring to ask if your comparison of event of today with certain predictions from St. Louis de Montfort (which I do not recall from studying that work as part of preparation for my consecration) came from your personal experience at Medjugorie, which certainly seems to have been spiritually valuable for you, or if you were sharing an observation that Cardinal Ratzinger had made. I would like to know also if either the Cardinal or the Pope has said that we are now engaged in the apocalyptic battle described in revelation, or if this is your insight you are sharing. Your post was not clear to me, no doubt due to my advancing age in feeble faculties.

As far as popping off, I do it frequently here, as all who know me have observed. You are free to join White Dove, Annunciata, Teresa and others who gently steer me back to gentler paths when so required.

 

[Mijoy2]

It would seem to me that if; wars; natural disaters; evils; Marian apparitions etc. are a sign of the end times drawing near, these occasions would have to be statistically of much greater frequency and/or magnitude then past occurances of the same.

It seems whenever there is an earth quake (such as the Tsunami), or a new war (such as the war with Iraq), “end times” prophecy comes to the forefront. However we have experienced earth quakes with even greater human loss then that of the recent Tsunami, and we have experienced wars throughout time. I don’ t believe there has ever been a time when the entire world has been at peace.

When we experience an earth quake in all corners of the world simultaneously and severe outbreak of war as measured on a world wide perspective, I’ll take these threads seriously.

 

[padraig]

Ann,
I don’t know about your,‘advancing age in feeble faculties’, but I wouldn’t worry too much as in my experience Texans can talk the birds from the trees and send them away singing Dixie, worse than the Blarney of the Irish in that regard!:bounce:

But anyway on to your points: I take it you accept now, since seeing my post that Betania is in fact approved by the Church? You didn’t actually say so, its a bit like pulling a tooth with you, but I’ll take it you do!

Now as far as Our Lady of All Nations is concerned it too has official Church recognition:

May 31, 2002
​

In Response to Inquiries Concerning the Lady of All Nations Apparitions

As Bishop of Haarlem/Amsterdam, I have been requested to make a statement regarding the authenticity of the apparitions of Mary as the Lady of All Nations in Amsterdam during the years of 1945 -1959. …
** I have come to the conclusion that the apparitions of the Lady of All Nations in Amsterdam consist of a supernatural origin.**
…Unlike Holy Scripture, private revelations are never binding upon the conscience of the faithful. They are a help in understanding the signs of the times and to help live more fully the Gospel (cf. *Lk *12:56, *Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 67). *And the signs of our times are dramatic. The devotion to the Lady of All Nations can help us, in my sincere conviction, in guiding us on the right path during the present serious drama of our times, the path to a new and special outpouring of the Holy Spirit, Who alone can heal the great wounds of our times.

So Ann; I hope you can now agree with me that both Betania and Amsterdam have in fact received official Church approval and I have removed any lingering doubts in this regard.

I am surprised Ann that you do not recall that Saint Louis Marie Grignion De Montford had a profound prophetic element to his writings. I quote here from the Saint written in ‘True Devotion’;

In his treatise on True Devotion To The Blessed Virgin, he wrote, "It is through the most holy Virgin Mary that Jesus came into the world, and it is also through her that he has to reign in the world. . . . It was through Mary that the salvation of the world was begun, and it is through Mary that it must be consummated. . . . Devotion to Our Blessed Lady is necessary for salvation. . . . He who has not Mary for his Mother has not God for his Father.
"It is necessary for the greater knowledge and glory of the Most Holy Trinity, that Mary should be more than ever known. . . . Mary must shine forth more than ever in mercy, in might, and in grace in these later times*: in mercy to bring back and lovingly receive the poor strayed sinners who shall be converted and shall return to the Catholic Church; in might, against the enemies of God, idolaters, schismatics, Mahometans, Jews, and souls hardened in impiety, who shall rise in terrible revolt against God. . .; and finally, she must shine forth in grace, in order to animate and sustain the valiant soldiers and faithful servants of Jesus Christ who shall battle for His interests.

• It is clear that Saint Louis Marie was speaking here in prophecy, as he also foretold that Satan would cause his treatise to be lost. True Devotion was not discovered until one hundred and twenty-six years after his death.]

“But the power of Mary over all the devils will especially shine forth in the latter times, when Satan will lay his snares against her heel: that is to say, her humble slaves and her poor children, whom she will raise up to make war against him. They shall be little and poor in the world’s esteem . . . and persecuted as the heel is by other members of the body. But in return for this, they shall be rich in the grace of God, which Mary shall distribute to them abundantly.”

Who shall these servants, slaves, and children of Mary be? The saint answers himself: "They shall be the ministers of the Lord who, like a burning fire, shall kindle the fire of divine love

everywhere." And “they shall be ‘like sharp arrows in the hand of the powerful’ Mary to pierce her enemies.”

So St Louis talks about a war in the latter times between Satan and Our Lady and their followers. Clearly prophetic in tone and equally clearly as the Saint sayss refering to the Latter times. I am amazed that you read the book without noticing this, Ann.
To clear up any misunderstanding I am not aware that either the Holy Father or Cardinal Ratzinger have made any definitive statements on these issues, so at least we agree on something, Ann

 

[serendipity]

padraig:

In Ann’s original post, Ann stated that, on the question of Betania it had, 'not been approved by the local bishops or the Vatican.'
Neither yourself, Serendipity, nor Ann have acknowleged this to be mistaken, perhaps it is reasonable that you should as a point of fact . Placing a post before being sure of one’s facts sounds a lot like ‘popping off’ to me.
As regards Cardinal Ratzinger’s statement Ann said, 'Did Cardinal Ratzinger say this, or is this your own reflection?’
The very clear implication being, I believe, that I was somehow twisting the Cardinal’s words to my own advantage. A question is indeed legitimate, Serendipity, an implied distortion of the Cardinal’s words is not. This is rather more, in my books than, ’ asking a legitimate question '.
However I agree with much else you say in your post. Many of the contemporary apparitions are,I believe, genuine and have received the approval of the Church, many are not.
People are, of course allowed on forums as you say, Ann,** 'asking a legitimate question '.** But when they state something as a fact which is simply untrue, then other people, as a fact have a right to state that they are wrong. When again they imply that someone is distorting the truth it is reasonable if there should be an effort to clear matters up.
I am only sorry that in neither case, Ann, did you feel able to bring yourself to acknowledge your mistake.

I’m sorry but the post was not clear to some of us. Thanks for thinking that wee all understand the smae thigns, but that is not true. I am a bit dense at times. That’s why I like discussion baord, because I can ask for clarification and receive feedback.

We can’t have all gifts, but chatising people for their inability to comprehend some one else’s thoughts as written, like your quote, seems to be “popping off.”

 

[padraig]

Serendipity,

You said, 'I am a bit dense at times.’ I am afraid I too am a** ‘I am a bit dense at times’, **myself, as I cannot make head nor tail of your post?

 

[padraig]

Mijoy,
Jesus urged us to read the signs of the times. You have done so and have found them pretty alright, no worse nor better than normal. Fair enough.
But how are we as Catholics, to read the signs of the times. Saint Paul tells us that the spiritual man judges all things spiritually. So then our judgement is not to be in a human sense, likle say a weather forecaster or a political pundit, but in a spiritual sense.
Now it seems to me that in this, as in all else the Ctholic will turn to his Mother the Church for this insight.
Partly this insight is, in my view given by the extroadinary amount of approved Marian apparitions in recent times. Off hand I can think of nine wtih Church approval Fatima (Portugal), Beauraing (Belgium), Banneux (Belgium), Akita (Japan), Syracuse (Italy), Zeitoun (Egypt), Manila (Philippines) (according to some sources), and Betania (Venezuela) and Amsterdam.
Again and again in all these Mary is warning for the need for spitual times and the great challenges that lie ahead…

 

[Edwin1961]

I find it interesting in the post above, that of hte 9 approved aparitations, 5 are in Europe and None in the Russia and the Americas.
BUT are these ONLY in the last few years?

Still If ind it interesting that there are none in the U.S. You would think for a country like outs which NEEDS conversion of hears and souls that Our Lade woulld appear here in an apariaton that would be approved. I have near of a lot of false ones but not an ‘official one’ yet.

God IS withUs!
Edwin

 

[puzzleannie]

padraig:

In his treatise on True."

So St Louis talks about a war in the latter times between Satan and Our Lady and their followers. Clearly prophetic in tone and equally clearly as the Saint sayss refering to the Latter times. I am amazed that you read the book without noticing this, Ann.

I always assumed that he was talking about his own times, when there were threats from advancing Islam, and the attitude toward Jews often regarded them as malignant enemy. I never understood it as prophesy in the sense you mean. I took latter times to mean the immediate future.

I have to confess I am not a native Texan, although I did find myself adding hot sauce to my eggs the other day, may I have been here too long.

 

[padraig]

Edwin,
I would be amazed that out of the great throng of **‘alleged’ **(and I emphasise 'alleged’) apparitions in the United States at the present time, one was not eventually approved by the Church.
There have been 29 alleged apparitions since World War II:
Detroit 1944
Necedal 1949
Denver 1950
Binghamton 1950
Philadelphia 1953
Sausalito 1957
Fort Kent 1968
Bayside 1970
Canton 1982
Bakersfield 1984
Cleveland 1985
Santa Fe 1985
Lubbock 1988
Scottsdale 1988
Phoenix 1988
Tiktaw 1988
Marlboro 1989
Denver 1990
Conyers 1990
Hillside 1990
Arkansas (TX) 1991
San Bruno 1991
Falmouth 1992
Enfield 1992
Belleville 1993
Cincinnati 1993
Rochester 1993
Emmitsburg 1994
These apparitions in the USA **have either been rejected as inauthentic or they are not yet recognized. **
But I would be astonished if every single one was put in the rubbish bin, there is certainly gold in the dross.

 

[padraig]

Ann,
I was reminded, on reading your post of a bumper stiker I saw,
‘Not born in Texas, but I got here as soon as I could!’

I am perturbed by a contemporary trend to what I might call a bracketed, materialistic, Protestant type of Spirituality which is inclined to have a knee jerk, antagonistic reaction to-wards all that is miraculous or any form of apparition. The summation of this approach might well be, ‘All we have is what we encounter with our senses, God is up there, we are down here lets get on with our lives, using science to interpet how we encounter the world.’
None of us should need reminded that all aspects of Catholic life are imbued with the influence of the supernatural, with visions and with the miraculous.
Walk into your average Catholic Church . You will commonly see a picture of the Sacred Heart, the devotion that began as a result of the apparitions of Jesus to St Margaret Mary, in the small town of Paray-le-Monial in central France.
You may very well see a staue of Our Lady of Lourdes, The Immaculate Conception, when Our Lady appeared 18 times to Bernadette Soubirous, a young poor and sick girl in the grotto of Masabielle, close to Lourdes in France in 1858. In the Americas you will very commonly find a picture of Our Lady of Guadaloupe, who appeared to Juan Diego, the seer of Guadalupe, a recently baptised adult convert, aged 57, when Mary appeared to him in 1531 at Tepeyac hill, near Mexico city, formerly the site of a pagan temple. He was a widower, his wife having died in 1529.
Turn to our Catholic medals and scapulars, these are redolent with stories of apparitions. The Miraculous Medal which was given in a vision, on the night of July 18-19, 1830. A child (perhaps her guardian angel) awakened Sister (now Saint) Catherine Labouré, a novice in the community of the Daughters of Charity in Paris, and summoned her to the chapel. There she met with the Virgin Mary and spoke with her for several hours. The Brown scapular, said to have been given to Saint Simon Stock by Our Lady.
Turn to Our Liturgy, Feast after Feast commemorates visions, or are haevily influenced by them. The Annuciation, heralded by a vision of the Arcangel Gabriel,the Birth of John the Baptist, again heralded by the apparition of an angel,Our Lady of the Rosary, set up after the Battle of Lepanto which victory was shown to the then Pope in a vision, Easter when Christ Ressurection was procalimed by the appearance of angels, And Christmas when Christs birth was joyfully procalimed by the apparition of numerous singing angels.
Sripture itself is a patchwork of the miraculous as is the lives of the saints and the writings of the early Fathers of the Church.
Why do so many Catholics, like yourself, Ann appear to have have this muted or openly hostile attitude to the mention of apparitions?? This seems to me a profoundly Protestant and un- Catholic reaction!!!
Finally, we shall also abide by what Pope Urban VIII (1623-44) stated:

*“In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe, for if you believe and it was proven true, you will be happy that you have believed because our Holy Mother Church asked it. If you believe and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings as if proven true, because you believed it to be true. ‘Blessed are they who believed and yet have not seen’ (John 20:29).” *

 

[padraig]

Changed my, profile, just testing…