War

[PeteZaHut]

I learned in Theology class that a Catholic cannot morally join the armed forces if his country is participated in a war that is manifestly unjust. Would there even be a question of this for someone joining the United States military since Iraq is not technically a war anymore?

 

[Titus]

Iraq is not a just war by the Church’s just war doctrine, I believe, since it was a war of aggression. But I do see that it is no longer a ‘war’ per se, but a peacekeeping action. Morally and ethically tricky; probably a matter of individual conscience.

By the way, this doesn’t belong in Liturgy & Sacraments.

 

[otjm]

One of the best analyses I have seen of the Just War Theory was done recently by George Weigel, and he answers this better than most posters herein will be able to do. He addresses issues such as whether or not an individual faced with fighting in this war has enough information to be able to make the judgement of manifest injustice.

I am sorry that I don’t have a link; I would like to retreive it myself. It is well thought out and well researched. I would suggest you try to find it.

The issue is not constrained by anything as simple as whether or not in US law or International law this is a war, or a police action, or goes by some other name. It is comabant with a militant, and his comments apply.

 

[Fidei_Defensor]

“While we have warned of the potential moral dangers of embarking on this war, we have also been clear that there are no easy answers. War has serious consequences, so could the failure to act. People of good will may and do disagree on how to interpret just war teaching and how to apply just war norms to the controverted facts of this case. We understand and respect the difficult moral choices that must be made by our President and others who bear the responsibility of making these grave decisions involving our nation’s and the world’s security (Catechism #2309).”

-The Most Reverend Wilton D. Gregory,
Archbishop of Atlanta;
President Emeritus,
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

“Consider, for example, the war in Iraq. Although Pope John Paul II pleaded for an alternative to the use of military force to meet the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, he did not bind the conscience of Catholics to agree with his judgment on the matter, nor did he say that it would be morally wrong for Catholic soldiers to participate in the war. In line with the teaching of the catechism on “just war,” he recognized that a final judgment of prudence as to the necessity of military force rests with statesmen, not with ecclesiastical leaders. Catholics may, in good conscience, support the use of force in Iraq or oppose it.”

-The Most Reverend John J. Myers,
Archbishop of Newark

 

[fathertom]

I learned in Theology class that a Catholic cannot morally join the armed forces if his country is participated in a war that is manifestly unjust. Would there even be a question of this for someone joining the United States military since Iraq is not technically a war anymore?

Well said! I agree completely!

 

[decn2b]

Iraq is not a just war by the Church’s just war doctrine, I believe, since it was a war of aggression. But I do see that it is no longer a ‘war’ per se, but a peacekeeping action. Morally and ethically tricky; probably a matter of individual conscience.

By the way, this doesn’t belong in Liturgy & Sacraments.

RIght now we have no real idea on whether Iraq is a Peacekeeping action or not. Since we are not there and the secular media is distorting the war in order to garner support for pro-abortion politicians and vote getting. A peace keeping mission is not a war of aggression. We have no idea of how many lives that might be saved each day because of our security presence. I am not a big fan of this war (or any war) and I am one who believes in free speech. But every time terrorists see AMercians protesting the war they are invigorated by the misconception that Americans are starting to turn on each other. Fanaticism is fueled by this and it gets worse. Radical Islam is not going anywhere soon and any fool who thinks that we can “dialogue” with them smoked way way to much Marujuana and/or listened to too many Simon and Garfunkel songs.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

People usually do not know if a war was just or not until after the war is long over. So you have to trust in your election system to prevent such. It is not reasonable to deny military service to Catholics and you were taught incorrectly on that issue. The military is to defend our country, soldiers are not taught or required to participate in war atrocities. I supported this war as did many others, of course I believed there were Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD’s) being prepared. Now I know that was not true. We have to clean up our mess in Iraq, unfortunately we do not know how to do that. To answer your question any Catholic can join the military any time unless that Catholic joins with the intent to participate in an unjust action. So if a Catholic knew in 2002 there were no WMD’s and joined or went to war that was a problem. It is unlikely any particular soldier was in that situation then, no soldier is in that situation today. Hope that helps

 

[Texas_Roofer]

RIght now we have no real idea on whether Iraq is a Peacekeeping action or not. Since we are not there and the secular media is distorting the war in order to garner support for pro-abortion politicians and vote getting. A peace keeping mission is not a war of aggression. We have no idea of how many lives that might be saved each day because of our security presence. I am not a big fan of this war (or any war) and I am one who believes in free speech. But every time terrorists see AMercians protesting the war they are invigorated by the misconception that Americans are starting to turn on each other. Fanaticism is fueled by this and it gets worse. Radical Islam is not going anywhere soon and any fool who thinks that we can “dialogue” with them smoked way way to much Marujuana and/or listened to too many Simon and Garfunkel songs.

I’ll right you have me curious what fuels genocide?

btw did you forget about Peter, Paul, and Mary

 

[Al_Masetti]

Iraq is not a just war by the Church’s just war doctrine, I believe, since it was a war of aggression. But I do see that it is no longer a ‘war’ per se, but a peacekeeping action. Morally and ethically tricky; probably a matter of individual conscience.

By the way, this doesn’t belong in Liturgy & Sacraments.

You could probably get some very articulate people on CAF to post valid arguments that the war in Iraq IS a just war.

In fact, there have already been numerous arguments and debates in these hallowed halls just around that issue.

Further, there is no draft, so no one can force anyone to join the military. All members of the military are volunteers and know full well ahead of time that they will likely be sent to Iraq or to one of the other countries involved in the War on Terror.

 

[Benedictus]

You could probably get some very articulate people on CAF to post valid arguments that the war in Iraq IS a just war.

No, not valid, just very tiresome and probably quite verbose.

 

[Steven_Merten]

I learned in Theology class that a Catholic cannot morally join the armed forces if his country is participated in a war that is manifestly unjust. Would there even be a question of this for someone joining the United States military since Iraq is not technically a war anymore?

Hello PeteZaHut,

You might want to ask your theology instructor how they understand Pope Benedict XVI joining the German army during WWII. Pope Benedict XVI knew Hitler’s cause was evil and unjust, yet he joined anyway to avoid martyrdom. We know that martyrdom should be chosen by a faithful Catholic over mortal sin. Did he commit mortal sin or was joining the German army and fighting for Hitler, in Hitler’s unjust (the most evil unjust war in human history) not mortal sin for German soldiers?

In a CAF poll that I had, the majority of those polled did not see joining and fighting in an army, even on the side of great injustice, as mortal sin. The thread was lost in the great 06 CAF cybre attack.

After Pope Benedict XVI spoke out against Muslim violence, a Catholic nun and priest were murdered by Muslim terrorists. We have not heard the Pope speak out against Muslim violence since. I have heard that Hitler would have whole Austrian towns shelled and destroyed if there were too many Austrians from that town refusing to join the German army.

One has to remember America, because of her great justice, freedom and respect for human life, is always going to be the target of anti-war cleric condemnations over evil wicked dictators who wreak mass attrocities upon millions of innocent people. This is because speaking out against evil wicked dictators like Hitler, Stalin, Saddom and Bin Laden means mass martyrdom which Church leaders are not willing to accept.

400,000 people were being genocided in Sudan. Israel attacked Muslim terrorists in Lebonon where hundreds died. The whole Catholic Church clergy around the world went on a massive “not a just war” anti-Israel campaign while remaining silent to the half a million people being genocided by Sudanies Muslim leaders.

When reading anti-American, and her allies, condemnations of the Iraq war, (or Israel in Lebonon and the like) always remember the imense, unjust double standard Catholic clergy place on America and her allies.

 

[Al_Masetti]

No, not valid, just very tiresome and probably quite verbose.

WONDERFUL argument!!!

I love it!!!

 

[Al_Masetti]

No, not valid, just very tiresome and probably quite verbose.

WONDERFUL argument!!!

I love it!!!

I will be sure to use this debating point in the future. With appropriate credit … where credit is due.

 

[Steven_Merten]

-The Most Reverend Wilton D. Gregory,
Archbishop of Atlanta;
President Emeritus,
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

“Consider, for example, the war in Iraq. Although Pope John Paul II pleaded for an alternative to the use of military force to meet the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, he did not bind the conscience of Catholics to agree with his judgment on the matter, nor did he say that it would be morally wrong for Catholic soldiers to participate in the war. In line with the teaching of the catechism on “just war,” he recognized that a final judgment of prudence as to the necessity of military force rests with statesmen, not with ecclesiastical leaders. Catholics may, in good conscience, support the use of force in Iraq or oppose it.”

-The Most Reverend John J. Myers,
Archbishop of Newark

Hello Fidei,

What do you think of Bishope John Michael Botean, Bishop of the Romanian Catholic Diocese of St. George in Canton, Ohio? He has bound American soilders, under his Apostolic Successor juristiction, to mortal sin, therefore eternal death if not absolved, for killing in the Iraq war.

If Pope Pius XII did not even bind Italian and German Catholics to mortal sin in WWII, where millions of Catholics killed on the side of the greatest evil, unjust war, and atrocities in human history, is it fair to damn Americans souls to hell through “binding consciences”, Apostolic use of the “Keys to the Kingdom”, for killing in the Iraq war?

Has the Church strongly condemned Bishop Boteans abuse of eternal life deadly use of the “Keys to the Kingdom”?

Or, do some feel that Pope Pius XII failed in his duties to bind German and Italian souls to mortal sin, and therefore eternal death, if they fought for Hitler, through the use of the Keys to the Kingdom.

Is bishop Boteans abuse of the Keys to the Kingdom, which kills American soldiers souls to eternal death, an abomination of infinitely emense proportions (spiritual murder)?

What do you think?

**Romanian Catholic Statement Against War With Iraq,
by John Michael Botean,
Bishop of the Romanian Catholic Diocese of St. George in Canton, Ohio **
Because such a moment of moral crisis has arisen for us, beloved Romanian Catholics, I must now speak to you as your bishop. Please be aware that I am not speaking to you as a theologian or as a private Christian voicing his opinion, nor by any means am I speaking to you as a political partisan. I am speaking to you solely as your bishop with the authority and responsibility I, though a sinner, have been given as a successor to the apostles on your behalf. I am speaking to you from the deepest chambers of my conscience as your bishop, appointed by Jesus Christ in his Body, the Church, to help shepherd you to sanctity and to heaven. Never before have I spoken to you in this manner, explicitly exercising the fullness of authority Jesus Christ has given his Apostles “to bind and to loose,” ( *cf *. John 20:23), but now “the love of Christ compels” me to do so (2 Corinthians 5:14). My love for you makes it a moral imperative that I not allow you, by my silence, to fall into grave evil and its incalculable temporal and eternal consequences.

Humanly speaking, I would much prefer to keep silent. It would be far, far easier for me and my family simply to let events unfold as they will, without commentary or warning on my part. But what kind of shepherd would I be if I, seeing the approach of the wolf, ran away from the sheep ( *cf *. John 10:12-14)? My silence would be cowardly and, indeed, sinful. I believe that Christ, whose flock you are, expects more than silence from me on behalf of the souls committed to my protection and guidance.

Therefore I, by the grace of God and the favor of the Apostolic See Bishop of the Eparchy of St. George in Canton, must declare to you, my people, for the sake of your salvation as well as my own, that any direct participation and support of this war against the people of Iraq is objectively grave evil, a matter of mortal sin. Beyond a reasonable doubt this war is morally incompatible with the Person and Way of Jesus Christ. With moral certainty I say to you it does not meet even the minimal standards of the Catholic just war theory.

Thus, any killing associated with it is unjustified and, in consequence, unequivocally murder. Direct participation in this war is the moral equivalent of direct participation in an abortion. For the Catholics of the Eparchy of St. George, **I hereby authoritatively state that such direct participation is intrinsically and gravely evil and therefore absolutely forbidden. **

Quoted from: jonahhouse.org/boteanRCbishop.htm

 

[PeteZaHut]

That is pretty disturbing. He says even people that directly support the war are involved in grave sin, which seems pretty ridiculous.

What kind of binding power does that have on that bishop’s parish? I know if the Pope had said something in ex cathedra, then it binds everyone. What does it mean when a bishop says something like that?

 

[mlchance]

That is pretty disturbing. He says even people that directly support the war are involved in grave sin, which seems pretty ridiculous.

Quite right. It’s just as ridiculous as saying that Pope Benedict XI as a child joined the Nazi army in order to avoid being killed.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Al_Masetti]

If one bishop binds all of his “parishioners” in his diocese under mortal sin, then why would that decision not also be applicable (faith and morals) to every other Catholic in the United States, even if every bishop has not made such a judgement?

If not, then why not?

Could the bishop be in error, in some way?

 

[Steven_Merten]

Quite right. It’s just as ridiculous as saying that Pope Benedict XI as a child joined the Nazi army in order to avoid being killed.

– Mark L. Chance.

Hello Mark,

Why did Pope Benedict XVI join Hitler’s army then?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

That is pretty disturbing. He says even people that directly support the war are involved in grave sin, which seems pretty ridiculous.

What kind of binding power does that have on that bishop’s parish? I know if the Pope had said something in ex cathedra, then it binds everyone. What does it mean when a bishop says something like that?

Though I thank the Bishop for his opinion I know of no authority associated with this opinion, except the Bishop could order no Sacraments be administered to such people in his Diocese until the individual repents. That would if ordered prevent further Eucharist, Marriage, and Last Rites.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello All,

Is the general consensus that Jesus only gave St. Peter, not the other elleven Apostles, therefore the Bishops, Apostolic powers and Apostolic authority over their congregations?

My thought would be that the other elleven Apostles, the Bishops, also have Apostolic Successor powers and authority bestowed to them from Jesus to guide their flocks as Bishop Botean indicates. Jesus obligates us to follow the authority He bestows in the Bishops as well as the authority He bestows in the Popes through Apostolic Succession. However, Jesus put St. Peter in unequalled authority over the other elleven Apostles, the Bishops, and therefore it is the Pope’s job to keep the other elleven Apostles, the Bishops, in line with the general direction that the Pope is taking the Church as a whole.

Do I think that Bishop Botean has Apostolic Successor power and authority from Jesus (provided he is regarded by the Holy See as officially a Bishop)? Yes. Do I think that he is abusing his Apostolic Successor power and authority when he binds American soldiers to mortal sin for participating in the Iraq war? Judging that no Church Apostolic Successor bound any German and Italian Catholic to mortal sin for killing for Hitler or any other evil unjust war, yes I do. Do I think that the Pope should use his unequaled authority over the other elleven Apostles, the Bishops, to put Bishop Botean in line with the Catholic Church in general so we are all (all 1.1 billion of us) on the same track? Yes I do.

How should the Pope do this? The Pope should bind Bishop Botean to mortal sin lest he repents and repealls his spiritually deadly bindings on American soldiers. Or the Pope should use his unequalled authority over the other elleven Apostles to over ride Bishop Botean’s bindings by loosting them. Better yet the Pope should do both.

What do you think?