Was Jesus afraid to die?

[tomspitzley3]

I have bounced around on this question for awhile now. I understand Jesus was perfect man, perfect God, but was he afraid to die, in a human sense? If He is God, he would understand he would be with the Father, and what would have to be done. But because He was man, He was able to be tempted, and maybe even wanting to avoid the cross, like how in scripture he asked for the cup to be taken away for His will, but He ultimately knew God’s will was more important. And while He was on the cross, I have heard two different thoughts on when he said “My God, why have you forsaken me?”. The first thought was in that time, God placed the sins of the world on Him, and God cannot look upon sin, so He looked away from Christ, another was He was quoting a Psalm that is about the crucifixion. What do you think? Was Jesus afraid of death and felt forsaken because of His humanity? Thank you so much for any answers, and God bless

 

[John_Martin]

On the cross he was quoting, no he was praying, Psalm 22. We only hear the first phrase because he was so out of breath, but his mind saw and felt the whole Psalm. And if you read Psalm 22 to its completion, you will see the fullness of his actual thinking at that moment.

I think sorrow would be a better word than fear - he was doing an immensely difficult thing, laying down his life willingly - I remember his saying, “My soul is sorrowful, unto death…” Fear is about something, some evil, that is to be avoided (flight) or defended against (fight). Sorrow is about the known loss (actual or impending) of what is loved, and here it is more than an “accidental” loss; it is about his intentional loss of his life about to take place. His Beatitude states, “Blessed are those who mourn, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven” and he was showing the true mourning where one gives up the self, knowingly, and with sorrow at it, for something yet unseen that is necessary.

John Martin

 

[MacQ]

On the cross he was quoting, no he was praying, Psalm 22. We only hear the first phrase because he was so out of breath, but his mind saw and felt the whole Psalm. And if you read Psalm 22 to its completion, you will see the fullness of his actual thinking at that moment.

I think sorrow would be a better word than fear - he was doing an immensely difficult thing, laying down his life willingly - I remember his saying, “My soul is sorrowful, unto death…” Fear is about something, some evil, that is to be avoided (flight) or defended against (fight). Sorrow is about the known loss (actual or impending) of what is loved, and here it is more than an “accidental” loss; it is about his intentional loss of his life about to take place. His Beatitude states, “Blessed are those who mourn, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven” and he was showing the true mourning where one gives up the self, knowingly, and with sorrow at it, for something yet unseen that is necessary.

John Martin

Nice reply.
I’d only add the perhaps thought that as He was fully human, He experienced the full range of humanity, including temptation, fear, sorrow, dread, and forsakenness.

 

[mdgspencer]

I wouldn’t say he was afraid to die. But he was human as well as divine, and his human nature shrunk from unbearable suffering. Those who have meditated on the cross and sought to know what he actually went through then can begin to understand how great his suffering was. The movie “The Passion of the Christ” only begins to show what his suffering was.

 

[Seraphim73]

Nice reply.
I’d only add the perhaps thought that as He was fully human, He experienced the full range of humanity, including temptation, fear, sorrow, dread, and forsakenness.

I’m sure He was afraid although not of death. He was like us in every single way except for sin so He would have trusted God. I imagine He was afraid of the physical pain.

 

[Cricket2]

On the cross he was quoting, no he was praying, Psalm 22. We only hear the first phrase because he was so out of breath, but his mind saw and felt the whole Psalm. And if you read Psalm 22 to its completion, you will see the fullness of his actual thinking at that moment.

I think sorrow would be a better word than fear - he was doing an immensely difficult thing, laying down his life willingly - I remember his saying, “My soul is sorrowful, unto death…” Fear is about something, some evil, that is to be avoided (flight) or defended against (fight). Sorrow is about the known loss (actual or impending) of what is loved, and here it is more than an “accidental” loss; it is about his intentional loss of his life about to take place. His Beatitude states, “Blessed are those who mourn, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven” and he was showing the true mourning where one gives up the self, knowingly, and with sorrow at it, for something yet unseen that is necessary.

John Martin

I like this reply. I do wonder, as he experienced human nature, if Jesus could have “feared” the suffering he knew was coming. But your mention of sorrow seems much better and covers that well for me.

I have realized on a personal level, that death is not what I fear. It is the process of getting to that point that can be so daunting. The battle between life and death can get pretty fierce at times, and as a limited human being there are times I just don’t care to put up with much more. Dying in the grace of God is really our final goal. Getting there is the hard part.

 

[Seraphim73]

I like this reply. I do wonder, as he experienced human nature, if Jesus could have “feared” the suffering he knew was coming. But your mention of sorrow seems much better and covers that well for me.

I have realized on a personal level, that death is not what I fear. It is the process of getting to that point that can be so daunting. The battle between life and death can get pretty fierce at times, and as a limited human being there are times I just don’t care to put up with much more. Dying in the grace of God is really our final goal. Getting there is the hard part.

Well He didn’t “experience” human nature. He is a human. He felt fear just like the rest of us.

 

[djames99]

Very much so. In the garden Jesus was in agony. Before the temple guards arrested him, Jesus was praying and he asked God, “Father if you are willing, take this cup from me, but not my will but thy will be done”.

 

[fhansen]

I have bounced around on this question for awhile now. I understand Jesus was perfect man, perfect God, but was he afraid to die, in a human sense? If He is God, he would understand he would be with the Father, and what would have to be done. But because He was man, He was able to be tempted, and maybe even wanting to avoid the cross, like how in scripture he asked for the cup to be taken away for His will, but He ultimately knew God’s will was more important. And while He was on the cross, I have heard two different thoughts on when he said “My God, why have you forsaken me?”. The first thought was in that time, God placed the sins of the world on Him, and God cannot look upon sin, so He looked away from Christ, another was He was quoting a Psalm that is about the crucifixion. What do you think? Was Jesus afraid of death and felt forsaken because of His humanity? Thank you so much for any answers, and God bless

Pain, physical pain, is the worst evil according to Augustine. And pain was not diminished a bit for the Incarnate God. And He knew it was coming.

 

[Aloysium]

I don’t think He was afraid to die as He would know He would be resurrected.
A naked man, everything taken from Him, even His life, humiliated and abandoned in His pain - there’s no suffering that He didn’t endure. All that and worse, would be His becoming all sin in order to destroy it with His death.
We are all sinners and know what that is like; He took on all of it, the Lamb without blemish.

It’s something like that imho.

 

[Michael19682]

I have bounced around on this question for awhile now. I understand Jesus was perfect man, perfect God, but was he afraid to die, in a human sense? If He is God, he would understand he would be with the Father, and what would have to be done. But because He was man, He was able to be tempted, and maybe even wanting to avoid the cross, like how in scripture he asked for the cup to be taken away for His will, but He ultimately knew God’s will was more important. And while He was on the cross, I have heard two different thoughts on when he said “My God, why have you forsaken me?”. The first thought was in that time, God placed the sins of the world on Him, and God cannot look upon sin, so He looked away from Christ, another was He was quoting a Psalm that is about the crucifixion. What do you think? Was Jesus afraid of death and felt forsaken because of His humanity? Thank you so much for any answers, and God bless

I used to wonder, also.

1. if he didn’t feel fear, what would our fear mean? That we just don’t get it?
2. if* he did feel fear*…, That we should walk around terrified of death 24/7?

One thing is for sure also, he spoke rationally and calmly about it long before it happened. In my experience with other matters, such prior knowledge should have helped him.
As an example, I have a condition (not named here so please don’t name it either) which I had been warned about since childhood (though I never took the warnings seriously, being only a child and young adult and even used to joke about what seemed like the pure nonsense of the people who were talking); when “that hour” finally arrived, quite like a ton of bricks falling on me in a split second, a part of me that did ‘remember and know’, was preserved due to the prior knowledge etc. thereof. That prior knowledge etc. could not have been as powerful as the knowledge Jesus had of his own death. Therefore I merely conclude that the pain and fear of his death must have been buffered by his divine knowledge.

 

[Path_Finder]

Very much so. In the garden Jesus was in agony. Before the temple guards arrested him, Jesus was praying and he asked God, “Father if you are willing, take this cup from me, but not my will but thy will be done”.

This above is right on the mark. It’s basically what the “Agony in the Garden” is. Very important part of the Passion of Christ. This is why He is praying in the garden, summed up well in the MG movie.

In fact, sweating blood.

And his sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground.- Luke 22:44

 

[John_Martin]

I used to wonder, also.

1. if he didn’t feel fear, what would our fear mean? That we just don’t get it?
2. if* he did feel fear*…, That we should walk around terrified of death 24/7?
   …

From my study of Aquinas, fear is a response to an apparent evil, so it all would depend on how things appeared to Jesus - what appeared to him, and how he categorized it (as good or evil coming at him).

St. James wrote to consider it joy when you encounter testing, as a place to develop perseverance, and how are we tested? He continued that we are tested / tempted by the luring and enticing that happens within us whenever we desire something. So, we should consider it a joy when we desire things because it is a place to stop ourselves, not be deceived, and recall to our reason that “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change”.

Jesus, is/was like us in that he had all our desires, but not in reacting to them with sin. And he counted it (reasoned it) Joy to be a place to recall his Father’s promises. Fear is a reaction that happens when you do not stop and recall God’s promises. It is an “animal response” to something that appears to you rather than a “human” (“spiritual”) response. And as “animals” when afraid at the anticipation of an apparent evil that we desire not to happen, we flee or we fight.

In the boat, when they were about to be swamped and sunk by the wind and the waves, Jesus, unlike his disciples of little faith (meaning they were not remembering their Father and that all good comes down from him), Jesus spoke to the storm: “Be still”.

Sorrow (or Mourning might be a better word), on the other hand, is not in the emotions, not in the appetites, but in the soul, and concerning the Will. It is a “human” thing (“spiritual”), not an “animal” thing. It only comes about with reasoning. When Jesus knew the impending cross was near, he was not giving in to the speculations that appear in the mind from his desire to live. He knew his life was a gift from his Father, not something he must maintain at all costs by himself. He faced the cross as his choice. And within his soul, he experienced the sorrow of saying goodbye to his life,

John Martin

 

[Michael19682]

St. James wrote to consider it joy when you encounter testing, as a place to develop perseverance, and how are we tested? He continued that we are tested / tempted by the luring and enticing that happens within us whenever we desire something. So, we should consider it a joy when we desire things because it is a place to stop ourselves, not be deceived, and recall to our reason that “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change”.

John Martin

Thank you. A very good quote.

 

[Michael19682]

Sorrow (or Mourning might be a better word), on the other hand, is not in the emotions, not in the appetites, but in the soul, and concerning the Will. It is a “human” thing (“spiritual”), not an “animal” thing. It only comes about with reasoning. When Jesus knew the impending cross was near, he was not giving in to the speculations that appear in the mind from his desire to live. He knew his life was a gift from his Father, not something he must maintain at all costs by himself. He faced the cross as his choice. And within his soul, he experienced the sorrow of saying goodbye to his life,

John Martin

I am trying to link up this part of what you said with his long held knowledge of his own type of death, and trying to more profoundly understand how such knowledge (of his) helps us in the here and now, both that he died and that we die. “…though he may die, yet he shall live forever…”

 

[John_Martin]

I am trying to link up this part of what you said with his long held knowledge of his own type of death, and trying to more profoundly understand how such knowledge (of his) helps us in the here and now, both that he died and that we die. “…though he may die, yet he shall live forever…”

You spoke in your post of “knowledge of a prior condition”. Yes, that is a knowing ahead of time. If I read you correctly, that is a knowledge of some type of impending “evil” that either could or would approach one day, and apparently it did.

With Jesus, it was his intention to be himself (to be the Messiah) and to endure the brutality and death of that position, thus saying goodbye to living. His soul “knew” he was from God, the divine Son, but his soul could only “see” whatever were before his human eyes, probably much more clearly than we see.

Our eyes cannot see the resurrection coming, they can only envision the end of seeing, our ears the end of hearing, our thoughts the end of thinking. Actually, we cannot perceive our souls with our senses, so death appears to be the end of all, to our senses. Yet we know death is not what ought to be. So when we see death, approach it knowingly, we “perceive” it as final and the end of perceiving, breathing, living. And it is only another “knowing” that cries out, “I shall still see God, in my Flesh, even though I die”.

Jesus walked toward his death, letting go of seeing, hearing, thinking, breathing, although he loved doing all of them. His goal was to be the spotless lamb of the covenant for us with God, so that we could have a final sacrifice that would make us new creatures when we partake of him, participate him.

Jesus told his disciples of “his condition” that we was going to Jerusalem to be that lamb of God, and that he would be crucified and rise on the third day. That was that “second type of knowing” I mentioned, where he know that “in his flesh, rising again, he would see God, his Father, and see his disciples again”. You tell of your condition with the first type of knowing, that it was told to you even in childhood, so you knew it when it happened (if I read correctly and it did happen). But you can also speak to those around you with that second type of knowing; being baptized and confirmed you are one of the elect, chosen and baptized into the People of the Covenant by that People, the Church. Why? to be evidence in the world and to the world of the hope we have. Jesus was “being himself, the Messiah” when he faced death. We are being the Elect, the Special People of God in the World, being the “ourselves” of our new birth, when we claim to the ears of the world who thinks we are gone when we die, “I know I shall rise, see God in my flesh; I know in whom I have believed, and am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities, etc. shall separate me from the love of God in my King, my Christ, Jesus.”

I hope that is the tie-in you were thinking of.

John Martin

 

[Michael19682]

You spoke in your post of “knowledge of a prior condition”. Yes, that is a knowing ahead of time. If I read you correctly, that is a knowledge of some type of impending “evil” that either could or would approach one day, and apparently it did.

With Jesus, it was his intention to be himself (to be the Messiah) and to endure the brutality and death of that position, thus saying goodbye to living. His soul “knew” he was from God, the divine Son, but his soul could only “see” whatever were before his human eyes, probably much more clearly than we see.

John Martin

Well, I guess I am referring to a kind of developmental psychology. The earliest we hear of the actions of Jesus were of his leaping in the womb when Mary was near John the Baptist’s mother. That is kind of like joy, expressed, but to say that it was full knowledge of their later meeting in the Jordan and the intertwining of their destinies? Is I think too far to the right in viewing the divinity of Jesus (excessive, that is, dwelling on the divinity). Later, when he disappeared on the yearly temple journey to be in his father’s house, I think is more mature; far more mature. But for me, only after he fasted and was tempted did he know for certain that something was really up, and that he was going to be crucified. The announcing of the passion at several points in the gospel narratives seems to me to be for the benefit of his listeners: as well as being a means of advancing de facto his actual plan for our salvation by drawing himself deeper into the mystery of his own incarnation? until he finally says to Judas to do what you came for. In other words, he was sick of the ‘cat and mouse’ with the chief priests, and wanted it done, finally.

 

[MacQ]

Well, I guess I am referring to a kind of developmental psychology. The earliest we hear of the actions of Jesus were of his leaping in the womb when Mary was near John the Baptist’s mother.

It was actually John the Baptist who leapt in HIS mother’s (Elizabeth’s) womb when Mary entered her house.

 

[Michael19682]

It was actually John the Baptist who leapt in HIS mother’s (Elizabeth’s) womb when Mary entered her house.

Yes. Critical correction with regard to accuracy, thank you.
But the discussion may still proceed with same thinking. After all, if John could jump, so could any baby. In fact, they do.

 

[MacQ]

Yes. Critical correction with regard to accuracy, thank you.
But the discussion may still proceed with same thinking. After all, if John could jump, so could any baby. In fact, they do.

It is called “quickening”. The moment the mother first feels her baby move.
Happens at around 16 weeks or so. IN all normal pregnancies.
I don’t think it has much to do with the mood or psychology of the baby.
Sorry.