Was Mary subject to Joseph?

[St.Gimp]

Highly theoretical and probably unprovable idea:

Catholic theologians generally agree that Mary was free of the curses of original sin, which is why she is said to have experienced no multiplication of birth pains. Since she is free from this punishment of Eve, was she also free of the punishment of her husband ruling over her?

“I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee.”
(Gen. 3:16)

 

[kmktexas]

Yes, to the extent that Jewish law at the time gave husbands authority over their wives. Both Mary and Joseph were obedient to the Jewish law of the time. Why else would she go with him to Nazareth while well along with child?

OTOH, knowing that Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit, I tend to believe that Joseph held her in highest esteem as we do now.

 

[kepha1]

Catholic theologians generally agree that Mary was free of the curses of original sin, which is why she is said to have experienced no multiplication of birth pains.

   We don’t know for sure. In order for there to be a multiplication of birth pangs, SOME birth pangs must have already existed.  Therefore, I think the Mary may have had the same degree of “pangs” as God had originally intended for women before the fall.  Remember, the sate of sanctifying grace is the norm, the fall was the exception that took us all away from the norm. What makes Mary so pure is that she is FULLY human, the way God intended all of us to be before the fall, in perfect union with Him.

Since she is free from this punishment of Eve, was she also free of the punishment of her husband ruling over her?

“I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee.”

  Just who was Joseph?  The term “ruling over” implies dominance. Joseph was a just man. (Matthew1:19 says “righteous”, RSV) This compliment doesn’t get thrown around lightly in scriptures, and it is one rarely used. Mary was his help-mate, in accordance with Gen. 2:18 (suitable partner), as all women are to their husbands.  In my opinion, Mary was a suitable partner under a righteous man.  Now let’s take a quantum leap to Ephesians 5:25.  Before that verse, there is the often abused verse (22) that says, “Wives, be submissive to your husbands…” But 25 says, “Husbands love your wives as Christ loves his Church.”  Husbands are called to live a life of daily sacrifice within the bonds of love for their wives, because Jesus went all the way to the cross for his Church.  In my opinion, women have it easy!  Us guys are called to go all the way like Jesus!

This is no mere analogy, but a heavenly reality as well. This is a blueprint for happy wholesome families, not a script for power hungry egotists who confuse machismo with masculinity.

 Mary is the New Eve. Spouse of the Holy Spirit.  It is not so much that the Church gives us Mary, but more that Mary gives us the Church. And we are her children.  It is by Mary that Christianity elevated the position of women in general, to being help-mates and partners, not property.  Submissive, yes, for that is God’s design. But loved the way a woman should be loved, and happy for it, as imperfect as it is.   A quick look around shows what the culture of death is doing to the family. No single person in all of history has done more for  the dignity of women than  Our Blessed Mom.

In answer to your question, Eve was not punished with having her husband rule over her, it was a consequence of disobedience. Mary, the New Eve, was obedient in her subordinate role in the plan of salvation.

At what age did Jesus stop being subject to Joseph and Mary?

 

[chevalier]

As Saint Joseph is the model husband and father without an equal ever, there’s no room for any problem with dominance or anything such. Headship yes. “Head of the Holy Family” is what we say in the Littany to him. So yes, it seems he was a leader figure. However, good leaders don’t need to issue commands and don’t make unreasonable decisions. They see it as service and don’t lord over anyone, either. Therefore, I don’t see a problem here.

 

[St.Gimp]

kepha1:

We don’t know for sure. In order for there to be a multiplication of birth pangs, SOME birth pangs must have already existed. Therefore, I think the Mary may have had the same degree of “pangs” as God had originally intended for women before the fall.

I wouldn’t disagree.

kepha1:

Just who was Joseph? The term “ruling over” implies dominance.

This is one of the questions I’m struggling with. Some theologians say that the headship of the husband is a curse visited on Eve, since the “ruling over” is proclaimed in the same sentence as increased birth pains. Others would say that Adam was always the head of Eve, but that after the Fall this became a harsh sentence on Eve because she no longer was able to submit in humility. Either way, I’m trying to figure out if this is a curse imposed by God, or simply a consequence of sin (or if there’s a difference).

kepha1:

Now let’s take a quantum leap to Ephesians 5:25. Before that verse, there is the often abused verse (22) that says, “Wives, be submissive to your husbands…” But 25 says, “Husbands love your wives as Christ loves his Church.” Husbands are called to live a life of daily sacrifice within the bonds of love for their wives, because Jesus went all the way to the cross for his Church.

This thickens the plot, because it seems that male headship is part of the created order (as evidenced by its fuller pattern in Christ and the Church), and not simply a curse imposed on women.

As a sidenote, I have heard some people say that women need not submit to their husbands unless they first love their wives as Christ loved the Church. I’m not sure where they get this idea. Our Lord commanded His disciples to sumbit to the teachings of the Pharisees despite their hypocrisy and pride. Sure, there are limits to obedience, but it is not so lightly tossed aside.

Just a thought.

 

[gladtobe]

How in the world could it be punishment for Joseph to have authority over his wife? Even in the New Testament the scriptures says the man is head over his wife and should rule his family well. This has always been God’s plan, except in today’s women’s lib society.

 

[Lorarose]

How in the world could it be punishment for Joseph to have authority over his wife? Even in the New Testament the scriptures says the man is head over his wife and should rule his family well. This has always been God’s plan, except in today’s women’s lib society.

I think they’re referring to the curse God gave to Eve AFTER the fall - which means this was not the natural state for men and women BEFORE the fall.