Was on an Eastern Catholic sojourn...came back to find the place is closing!

[LastMinute]

A long long time ago… (back when it was still faddish to argue about Evolution on forums like this)

A rather inquisitive Filipino-American Catholic popped up here asking about what the heck was Eastern Catholicism - and was greeted by a lot of friendly people on the Eastern Catholicism board who encouraged to take a very long trek through the tradition…(i kinda wished you all warned me just how long that was going to take).

So he barnstormed St. Michael’s in NYC, squeezed into St. George’s (and absolutely dumbstruck by NYC-Ukranian beauty…), got lost twice in DC looking for Kidane Mehret, spent some time with St. Charbel at Our Lady of Lebanon, figured out that the Melkites and Ruthenians actually have things in English (love you guys and gals for that), and tried…-really- hard to sing in Malayam(?) at St. Mary Queen of Peace and Elmont… He occasionally went hunting for the Coptics (who always seemed to disappear) and always had that “summer jaunt” plan to San Diego and El Cajon to visit the Chaldeans…

…and he still questions where the heck did all the Armenians go in the NY area when St. Ann’s closed.

Life eventually intervenes - work, grad school, work, more grad school, failed relationships, even more work… then Covid… which he somehow survived…

Thinking this would be the best time to “regroup” and mull over his thoughts and experiences in Eastern Catholicism with those who live it out on a daily basis - i return only to find… the place is closing down?

So… the random potpourri of questions that are just going to be laid out all at once since they are putting all the chairs on the table so to speak.

1.) which way to the Party? CAF might be shuffling off its digital coil, but i’m sure there has to be a Node or Collection of Eastern Catholics somewhere on the 'Net. I’m always brimming with questions(like what is the Dormition of Mary?), and can’t imagine not having a place to ask!

2.) Now… about those Armenians? I’ve met a lot of Armenians-who-are-Catholic throughout the Tri-State area, usually in large Latin Rite venues. There’s a Church i’ve been told somewhere in NJ where i guess everyone went when St. Ann’s closed…

3.) 7 Archangels with names?: Pre-Covid i saw a rather interesting display of all 7 Archangels…but they were named! Tried asking the question in another venue, ended up with Ye traditional Latin Rite vs. Byzantines debating…well the things they always debate… which… yeah… I’ve been around both groups long enough to just tune it out, especially when it questions were asked in the spirit of charity and learning.

So I was always told not to use any names but Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael because of a lack of textual sourcing, and i think something to do with an ancient problem of someone making up Angel names coinciding with a Modern Western problem of people doing New Age-y type things with Angels. However i was also told that the Byzantines, Copts, and Ethiopians have a list of 7…which don’t match up apparently?

That’s it for now - hopefully some of you kind folks can respond to any of that and trust me - questions till abound.

 

[dochawk]

You should be aware of byzcath.org and its fora going forward; it’s where I learned much of what I know on the subject.

Also, if you have trouble getting the computer to let you join, pm me and i’ll tip off the administrator; you wouldn’t be the first . . .

 

[LastMinute]

Thanks for the assistance dochawk, i’m glad there is still a space or a place on the internet for at least the Byzantine Catholics.

Do any of the laity of the Oriental Orthodox-related Eastern Catholic churches show up there as well? Or is that yet another website/mesage board yet undiscovered.

 

[Dovekin]

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Wikipedia has an article on the Seven Archangels that gives many lists of names, sources for the names, etc.

The important source for Christianity is The Celestial Hierarchy by pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite. This was a 6th century possibly Syrian writer passing on traditions, including some of the Neoplatonist ideas of Proclus. His works were very influential throughout the Christian world since they appeared to be from someone St Paul converted.

 

[dochawk]

If memory serves, there are a couple of OO and OC, yes.

I don’t know of another board with that focus, though

 

[LastMinute]

Oh i’ve read the article before, i’m just confused a bit why a Latin Rite Catholic is restricted in veneration to Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael, whereas as Eastern Catholic isn’t.

This is more than just a simple issue of “saints in other rites” - after all we all share a collective belief that there are many Saints in heaven that are simply just not recognized by all our churches. It doesn’t take any stretch of my imagination that St. Charbel and St. Seraphim of Sarov should be honored, although they may not be popular in the mainline Catholic Church mostly due to lack of knowledge/other saints who perform similar “duties” (Padre Pio for instance).

The Latin Rite restriction to the three sourced to the scriptures was due to an incident sometime in the 700s AD where there was an inconsistency in lists of Angels. I’m no historian, but it sounds like there were people worshipping Angels the way those on the more Occult/New Age wavelength does in our own time.

But all of Byzantines recognize Uriel (heck technically the Latin Rite did once upon a time, along with the Anglicans, and even the various branches of Judaism), Jehudiel, Salathiel, etc. the Coptics/Ethiopians have a different list… heck technically Pseudo-Dionysius has a different list too!

So is this simply just one of those unresolved tensions and a kind of “Brother go your own way on this” situation between the Western and Eastern Catholics?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

i’m just confused a bit why a Latin Rite Catholic is restricted in veneration to Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael, whereas as Eastern Catholic isn’t.

First of all, you have that a little bit wrong. Latin Rite Catholics are allowed to venerate ALL the angels. However, we are only supposed to venerate certain angels by name. The angels we can venerate by name, according to Pope Zachary’s rules decreed in 745, are the ones whose names appear in the canonical scripture: Sts. Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael. We are free to venerate the other four Archangels, or any other angels we want - such as all the Holy Angels as a group, our personal Guardian Angel, the nine Choirs of Angels, etc - but without using names for them. (Except possibly for St. Uriel, but I’ll get to that in a minute.)

Having said that, you will find Latin churches in the world that have statues of all seven Archangels with names (the other four names having been taken from non-canonical sources). Apparently in the Philippines there is a tendency to revere all 7 Archangels with names attached, and I have seen pictures online of one large church that has statues of them all with names. Another place I have seen figures of all 7 Archangels with names is at the Abbey of Santa Maria de Montserrat in Spain, which was founded in the 1000’s so the chapel there where I saw this was definitely built after Pope Zachary’s pronouncement. I believe that the use of the angel names was “discouraged” by Pope Zachary and not made anathema or anything, so I supposed if one were determined to use the four remaining archangels’ non-canonical names, you wouldn’t be sinning, but it’s not recommended (Except maybe for St. Uriel, see below).

Some Eastern churches also venerate St. Uriel by name, and when certain Eastern Catholic churches returned to communion with the Latin Catholic church following their schism, they brought with them a number of their own saints, including St. Uriel. All Catholics are permitted to freely venerate the saints of these Eastern Catholic churches (as their saints are now considered Catholic saints), so it follows that Latin Catholics may now pray by name to St. Uriel , although the Vatican has not issued a formal pronouncement. In the mid-1500s, St. Uriel is also said to have appeared to a Latin Catholic monk and provided the inspiration for the then-Pope to shortly thereafter build the church of Santa Maria degli Angeli e dei Martiri in Rome, which further suggests that St. Uriel has a tradition of being venerated by name even in Latin Catholicism after Pope Zachary’s pronouncement. For these reasons, I personally feel fine about praying to St. Uriel by name, in my private devotions. Some other Latin Catholics do not feel comfortable with this, which is also fine as one is never required to pray to a particular saint. However, it is unlikely that we will see a Latin Catholic public devotion to St. Uriel, such as a “St. Uriel Roman Catholic Church”, any time soon since that would require the Vatican to make some formal pronouncement about venerating him by name.

 

[LastMinute]

First of all, you have that a little bit wrong. Latin Rite Catholics are allowed to venerate ALL the angels. However, we are only supposed to venerate certain angels by name . The angels we can venerate by name , according to Pope Zachary’s rules decreed in 745, are the ones whose names appear in the canonical scripture:

Ah i see. I’ve heard so much conflicting information on this spread across social media platforms and the internet its enough to make my head spin.

Apparently in the Philippines there is a tendency to revere all 7 Archangels with names attached, and I have seen pictures online of one large church that has statues of them all with names.

I can confirm that - i’m part Filipino and hence the rather moment i get when i heard the topic brought up. It was one of those, “i know all countries have their folk traditions when it comes to Christianity, but we can’t all be a country of heretics on this one…”

All Catholics are permitted to freely venerate the saints of these Eastern Catholic churches

Well so that’s where things get interesting. I understand the Caveat regarding Uriel (as even the Jews recognize Uriel as part of their own ancient tradition).

The Byzantines have icons of all 7 of the Archangels with a set of names after Uriel for the last 3. And hence why some Eastern Catholics persist in their devotion to them.

But… the Eastern Catholic churches aren’t all Byzantine. You have some derived from the Assyrian Church of the East, Ethiopian Church, and Coptic Churches…

…which also have their own lists of archangels with the only common denominator being Uriel.

I’ve heard of EO/OO discussions where they tend to equate one of the divergent names on one list to an angel on the other Church’s list.

Is one group’s Sarathiel the other groups’ Selaphiel?
Is one group’s Uriel the same as the other groups’ Suriel?

So we have Eastern Catholic Churches, who bear the traditions of each of their ethnic groups, who all have archangel names that don’t even match each other within the context of the Eastern Catholic umbrella.

I mean - the Ethiopian Catholic Church have names like Phanuel, Raguel, and Remiel which no other Eastern Catholic Church shares except the Eritreans.

And hence my “huh what” confusion.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Is one group’s Sarathiel the other groups’ Selaphiel?
Is one group’s Uriel the same as the other groups’ Suriel?

I’d assume yes. I also don’t worry about it too much. There are a ton of regular old Latin Catholic saints who have about 6 name variations, but they’re all the same person. It doesn’t surprise me that angels might have name variations as well. The only issue is whether we as Latin Catholics should be praying to them by name when Pope Zachary discouraged us from doing so.

 

[Dovekin]

The Latin Rite restriction to the three sourced to the scriptures was due to an incident sometime in the 700s AD where there was an inconsistency in lists of Angels. I’m no historian, but it sounds like there were people worshipping Angels the way those on the more Occult/New Age wavelength does in our own time.

The “three sourced to the scriptures” is problematic. Everyone agrees Michael and Gabriel are scriptural. Raphael is mentioned in Tobit, which Catholics accept in their canon.

Similarly, Uriel is mentioned in 2 Esdras, which some accept as canonical. Esdras has a chart I refer to when figuring out the status of some part of these books. 2 Esdras is, in part, canonical in Slavonic and Ethiopic churches, but as 3, 4 or 5 Esdras, never 2 Esdras. Delightful.

I also think the 7 Archangels are the tip of an iceberg, with devotion to the seven planets underlying it. Neoplatonic thought took the seven planets as the basis for understanding the seven heavens, laying a foundation for the seven heavens to be seven spheres surrounding Earth, and each heaven ruled by a different Archangel. This showed up in Jewish and gnostic mysticisms, through to modern New Age stuff. Archangels can be kept separate from more pagan strains, but many people do not even try.

 

[LastMinute]

Similarly, Uriel is mentioned in 2 Esdras, which some accept as canonical. Esdras has a chart I refer to when figuring out the status of some part of these books. 2 Esdras is, in part, canonical in Slavonic and Ethiopic churches, but as 3, 4 or 5 Esdras, never 2 Esdras. Delightful.

That is a rather extensive chart, i’m Esdras-Whatever fell out of favor due to a combination of St. Jerome excluding the text followed by the fact that the Masoretic versions, the text was completely absent. I’ve seen that when it comes to comparisons between the Septuagint and the the canons in Western versions of the Bible, it seems to favor the Masoretic translations.

Archangels can be kept separate from more pagan strains, but many people do not even try.

Devotion to them have taken on a life of their own in non-traditional religious venues. I’ve always found it a little…odd… to be honest, when encountering such devotion outside of a Judaeo-Christian context.