Was peter a pope

[mardukm]

Dear brother Michael,

I don’t either. It’s a weak argument.

Nevertheless, one has to define “Pope” before the original post can be answered.

I am of the opinion that there is too much of telescoping church history on this subject on the part of many Roman Catholics. A Pope (in the modern sense) is assumed in Saint Peter by many where there is none to be seen! This lends credence to the Protestant arguments as listed (except for that ‘little rock’ thing), and they need to be seriously confronted.

So my point once again is this: you have to define ‘Pope’ before the question can be answered…then you look for that in the early church.

It just so happens the Roman Catholic church at Vatican Council 1870 defines the Papacy for us in terms of Universal Jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome. The text is readily available to everyone through Google and @ Sancte Sede website.

We do not find Saint Peter through scripture, nor any bishop of Rome in the First Millennium, exercising universal jurisdiction as defined in 1870AD.

Some Catholic theologians have stated that the Papacy as we know it today is an accident of history. I think one such notable was Cardinal Avery Dulles.

His Holiness Pope John Paul II (of blessed memory) had suggested to Orthodox to help him redefine the Papacy, and several noted Orthodox scholars have responded. It makes interesting reading.

Pax et Bonum,
Michael

Wise words, as usual.

Do you have any links to serious discussions by Orthodox scholars about how the papacy should be exercised? I have often heard that there have been no responses, and was always hoping that is not true.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Promethius,

Fancy presentation, but still patently untrue. We see in Acts that the apostles recognize the function of apostolic succession and elect a replacement for Judas. In fact, the entire basis of the church authority is built on apostolic succession. In other words, when you state “they are not apostles” RE: the popes of antiquity to present, you are VERY wrong.

I would humbly ask you to reconsider your position. We are not Mormons. There are no Apostles left (since they had to have been [1] chosen by the Lord and/or [2] been a witness to his life and ministry). However, we DO have the apostolic ministry still present with us.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Centos]

The Papacy as such was not present in the Church from the beginning - it’s an historical development, contingent on the growth & needs of the Church; it did not exist for some centuries. The Petrine function in the Church OTOH has been part of the Church since the ministry of Christ: it is the root of what became the Papacy; which is a manifestation of the PF, and not necessarily the final one.

The Bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter, was the preeminent Bishop in Christiandom. To me the word “Pope” is incidental.

St. Irenaeus:

“Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere.”

newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

May God be with you

 

[greggy53]

The best set of arguments for the scriptual basis of the papacy that I have heard can be found in Scott Hahn’s (a former prostestant minister) talk on the papacy. If you have a little time, the entire talk is on You tube.
LINK
This will arm you well for any further debates.
God Bless
Prof. K

Thanks for the link. I watched the videos last night, and now will keep it handy for the next time my SDA friend wants me to read any of his stuff.