Was Something Wrong with This Picture?

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DaveBj

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Okay, I went to 8:30 Mass this past Sunday (went straight from overnight work, so I was a little foggy). My wife met me there, accompanied by our grand-daughter, who has been up on a three-week visit; her second time in a Catholic church. This time (thanks to the discussions on these forums), I was able to notice a few things. One of our interlocutors here (name withheld to protect the guilty 😉 ) had PMed me that this parish was a little liberal. Well, here’s what I noticed for starters:
  1. Lots of individuals praying the Our Father in the orans position.
  2. Lots of hand-holding in the Our Father, including one pew-full holding hands in the orans position.
  3. Here’s what puzzled me most of all–our grand-daughter went out with the some of the other kids for “children’s liturgy.” After the collection was taken up, the altar servers (one boy, two girls) came back to help bring the gifts to the altar. When they made the procession back up to the front, there was our grand-daughter carrying the plate with the hosts that would be consecrated for Holy Communion. Someone had coached her well; she looked like she had been doing this all her life, down to the smart bow in the direction of the tabernacle before she turned around and came back to sit with us. But is this normal???
DaveBj
 
Dave,

There is nothing wrong with praying the Lord’s Prayer with hands in the orans position (this is, in fact, normative for Eastern Catholics). Holding hands, while not prohibited, is inappropriate – it is a way of forming community, but for Catholics community should be formed by the Eucharist. Since this action has arisen spontaneously from the laity, it suggests that there is a sense that community is missing. That, by itself, should tell us something about the casual attitude that is found in many parishes.

As for your grand-daughter (whom, I presume, is not Catholic) bringing up the gifts, that is also inappropriate. In fact, it should never be a visitor to the parish since the offertory procession should be the community offering their gifts – and that means it should be someone from the community!

Deacon Ed
 
orans: hands lifted up, elbows bent, palms facing your chest

I thought I had heard on Catholic Answers though that the GIRM doesn’t prescribe the laity using the orans posture, and since it is traditionally a priest’s posture, that there is no good reason to add it (in the Latin rite).

I think also that Jimmy Akin (or was it Karl?) suggested that it was improper because almost everyone kept their arms raised in the orans posture while the priest continued his part of the prayer and lifted their arms further during the doxology (“for the kingdom…”). It was improper because remaining in this position implied that the laity was sort of concelebrating with the priest at that particular moment.

I’ve given up trying to keep up with whether some of these new additions are allowed or not. I just keep my hands folded during the Our Father and my head bowed if it looks like my neighbor in the pew is trying to get grabby on me. I never refuse an outstretched hand though. I think that would be rude.
 
Dear Hidden:

There is nothing inherently wrong with using the orans position. It’s true that the people should cease that position when the common recital ends and the priest continues, and they should not be raised again for the embolism (“For the kingdom…”) at the end. The fact that something can be abused does not mean we should not do it.

Deacon Ed
 
But if the orans posture is not in the GIRM for the people to do, then why are we doing it? As noted, it is a priestly posture of offering prayer on behalf of the assembly. When everyone does it, it confuses the roles of the priest and people. I’d rather not have any novelties at the Mass, but if it were a choice between the orans and the hand-holding, at least the hand-holding seems more appropriate for the congregation to do.

JimG
 
The Hidden Life:
orans: hands lifted up, elbows bent, palms facing your chest

I thought I had heard on Catholic Answers though that the GIRM doesn’t prescribe the laity using the orans posture, and since it is traditionally a priest’s posture, that there is no good reason to add it (in the Latin rite).

I think also that Jimmy Akin (or was it Karl?) suggested that it was improper because almost everyone kept their arms raised in the orans posture while the priest continued his part of the prayer and lifted their arms further during the doxology (“for the kingdom…”). It was improper because remaining in this position implied that the laity was sort of concelebrating with the priest at that particular moment.

I’ve given up trying to keep up with whether some of these new additions are allowed or not. I just keep my hands folded during the Our Father and my head bowed if it looks like my neighbor in the pew is trying to get grabby on me.
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I agree 100%
I never refuse an outstretched hand though. I think that would be rude.
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Keeping your hands folded and eyes downcast, uplifted, or even closed helps avoid that situation. My own five year old son was yanking on my arm recently during the Our Father, obviously desiring to imitate others’ improper guestures. I didn’t take his hand, but finished the prayer. I did, however, hold his hand on the way to the car after Mass, which is completely appropriate! 😉
 
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JimG:
But if the orans posture is not in the GIRM for the people to do, then why are we doing it?..
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Unless I am mistaken, (which is entirely possible), there is in the GIRM no designated posture for the assembly’s hands during the Our Father, neither is there a designated “default” hand posture for those times at mass when there is no other designated posture in the GIRM.

So then, if one was to question whether a member the assembly may pray the Our Father with the orans posture at Mass, based on an absence of any text specifically instructing the assembly to do so, then one could just as reasonably question whether people may pray the Our Father with hands folded, with hands hanging at their sides, with hands resting on the pew in front, with hands holding a missal, with worshipers holding each others hands or any other reasonable posture. None of these are designated in the GIRM, so by that authority none of these should be considered either mandatory or verboten. There may be other instructions which supercede the GIRM in this matter, but I am not aware of what these instructions might be, what their scope of authority might be if they exist, or whether they actually exist at all.

Yours in Christ,

Joseph Bilodeau.
 
Joseph Bilodeau:
Unless I am mistaken, (which is entirely possible), there is in the GIRM no designated posture for the assembly’s hands during the Our Father, neither is there a designated “default” hand posture for those times at mass when there is no other designated posture in the GIRM.
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I think you are right that there is no designated hand posture for the Our Father in the GIRM. I just can’t figure why so many people recently have decided to imitate the priest.

JimG
 
Deacon Ed:
There is nothing inherently wrong with using the orans position. It’s true that the people should cease that position when the common recital ends and the priest continues, and they should not be raised again for the embolism (“For the kingdom…”) at the end. The fact that something can be abused does not mean we should not do it.

Deacon Ed
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I’ve said this before, folks, and I’ll say it again.

The rubrics of the Mass are PREscriptive, not PROscriptive. They tell you what to do, not what not to do. If they don’t mention a particular thing, it means you’re not supposed to do it.

Since the rubrics don’t instruct the laity to use the orans posture or to hold hands during the Our Father, those acts are improper. It doesn’t matter if people “like” them or if they have become an “instant tradition” in the parish.
 
Karl Keating:
It doesn’t matter if people “like” them or if they have become an “instant tradition” in the parish.
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But yet no parish seems to have taken any steps to abolish the practice. It’s almost as if the priests think “we didn’t start this, so we don’t need to stop it”. Or are they afraid of hurt feelings? Your thoughts?
 
There was a time when I stopped going to Mass. I wanted to go back but one reason why it was so difficult to return was the hand holding thing. UGH and *shudder. *

Finally after about 5 years I went back. After a few months my husband said “I am telling Father that this hand-holding thing is bothering me”. We were not the only ones to complain.

Father finally addressed the issue in the bulletin and during the announcements after Mass. Half the church still holds hands but hubby and I refuse. We just fold our hands and look down. Seems to work.
 
Melman - I questioned this when I first came to this Diocese, questioned the pastor about it and especially why the priests themselves hold hands during the Pater Noster. His answer was simply that the Bishop approved it.

Now we have a new Bishop and I will be interested to see if it continues. One time the new Bishop celebrated Mass at our parish. I noted that none of the priests tried to hold his hand or the hands of the altar servers on that day:D

I think he will get around to addressing it eventually but he has had and continues to have a very full plate since coming on board. I have faith in him and that he will get these liturgical abuses under conrol too especially since there is in place a procedure where laypersons now can make formal complaints about liturgical abuse to the diocese.

Of course if no one complains…well how will he know?
 
Deacon Ed:
Dave,

There is nothing wrong with praying the Lord’s Prayer with hands in the orans position (this is, in fact, normative for Eastern Catholics). Holding hands, while not prohibited, is inappropriate – it is a way of forming community, but for Catholics community should be formed by the Eucharist. Since this action has arisen spontaneously from the laity, it suggests that there is a sense that community is missing. That, by itself, should tell us something about the casual attitude that is found in many parishes.
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Someone asked our priest about the handholding, and his response was that it created a sense of community as we became one. My parish tries to appease the community to be so inclusive that I think we are losing our identity. Every Sunday, there is a moment where mass is “What is wrong with this picture”. 😦 Is anyone else experiencing that right now?
 
Karl Keating:
I’ve said this before, folks, and I’ll say it again.

The rubrics of the Mass are PREscriptive, not PROscriptive. They tell you what to do, not what not to do. If they don’t mention a particular thing, it means you’re not supposed to do it.

Since the rubrics don’t instruct the laity to use the orans posture or to hold hands during the Our Father, those acts are improper. It doesn’t matter if people “like” them or if they have become an “instant tradition” in the parish.
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OK Karl, what about the triple cross sign before the gospel readings? Please show me where it is in the GIRM. I cannot find it.

Thanks,
Iguana
 
The *General Instruction of the Roman Missal *(GIRM) instructs “everyone” to do this: “At the ambo, the priest opens the book and, with hands joined, says, Dominus vobiscum (The Lord be with you), and the people respond, Et cum spiritu tuo (And also with you). Then he says, Lectio sancti Evangelii (A reading from the holy gospel), making the sign of the cross with his thumb on the book and on his forehead, mouth, and breast, which everyone else does as well…” (GIRM 134)
 
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deogratias:
The *General Instruction of the Roman Missal *(GIRM) instructs “everyone” to do this: “At the ambo, the priest opens the book and, with hands joined, says, Dominus vobiscum (The Lord be with you), and the people respond, Et cum spiritu tuo (And also with you). Then he says, Lectio sancti Evangelii (A reading from the holy gospel), making the sign of the cross with his thumb on the book and on his forehead, mouth, and breast, which everyone else does as well…” (GIRM 134)
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Thanks. I mentioned this on another thread and no one answered. Problem solved!

Glad we have so many knowledgable folks here.
 
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