Was there a conspiracy by men to reduce the role of women in the early Church?

[msan0117]

I had someone tell me that the reason the Catholic Church leadership is dominated by men is because the early church made it a point to deemphasize the role of women like Mary Magdalene and others so that men would dominate. This in turn lead to an all male priesthood. This does not feel right to me, but I wanted to know if there were more factual reasons why this is false.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Is there any evidence for that?

 

[HopkinsReb]

Lack of evidence just proves the cover-up!

Conspiracy theories are all the same.

 

[Lea101]

I doubt there was a conscious attempt. Culture affects the Church (not dogma, obviously). So I guess in places where women were not equal, the Church doesn’t treat them like they were. That is, their roles were more limited than it is today.

But we can see that when gender equality became the norm, the Church became more vocal about it and women could do other stuff.

That being said, a male priesthood was always a thing, and it will continue to be a teaching of the church. To say that men in the past did it to control women is a reach.

 

[StAugustine]

It’s also a lie.

 

[stpurl]

The problem is, you’re asking us to ‘prove a negative’.

Since the early Church did not "make it a point to de-emphasize the role of women so men would dominate’, this in turn did not lead to ‘an all male priesthood’.

The fact is, the Jewish religion (Jesus Himself was a Jewish carpenter) itself had an all-male priesthood and had had for many, many centuries.

And the Christian religion which in fact emphasized and respected women to an unheard-of degree in that society, could have easily had women ‘admitted to the priesthood’ without the Gentile adherents even blinking an eye, because in that pagan society outside of Judaism, women ‘priestesses’ were the norm.

Jesus had already turned the world ‘upside down.’
His followers ‘ate His Flesh and drank His blood’. They celebrated His death on a cross (the most shameful of deaths). His followers reached out to the poor and the sick, and called them ‘blessed’. The whole ideal of His priests was not ‘power’ but ‘service’.

And yet, somehow, He couldn’t convince a dozen men, all of whom had left Him to His fate, denied Him, and were so afraid of being killed after Him that they hid for a week, to 'have women priests?"

He convinced them that even though He had died and was going to His Father, after telling them they would all suffer and die likewise (except for St. John), and that many of the people they would convince about Him would also suffer and die horribly, that He was really serious about that "eating the Body’ thing, and that He wasn’t just a good rabbi but GOD HIMSELF, and that He fulfilled all the covenants and yet, no more having to follow Jewish rules and rituals, to come out and spend their LIVES serving Him. . .

but He couldn’t get them to let Mary Magdalene and His Mother be priests too?

If it all sounds ridiculous, that’s because it is. God Almighty, after saving us from death and giving us eternity in heaven should we choose to accept it, couldn’t convince a handful of guys to 'share?"

 

[Thom18]

The all-male priesthood is nothing new. God’s priests have always been male, and we don’t need to look any further than the Levitical priesthood to find this fact.

 

[nightshade]

Diminish the role of women? The single greatest and most venerated created human being in the Catholic Church is a woman!

 

[redbetta]

Would a conspiracy even be needed to diminish the role of women in that day and age? They could have just went with the predominant culture in that regard.

 

[Luke6_37]

I had someone tell me that the reason the Catholic Church leadership is dominated by men is because the early church made it a point to deemphasize the role of women like Mary Magdalene and others so that men would dominate. This in turn lead to an all male priesthood. This does not feel right to me, but I wanted to know if there were more factual reasons why this is false.

I think its false to believe there was ever a willful “conspiracy” that in turn lead to an all male priesthood, but I do agree that the role of women was suppressed in the Church some time in the late 2nd century.

The Catholic priesthood hearkens back to Jewish tradition and the Aaronic priesthood, which was certainly all-male, but also a hereditary position. Jesus could not have been an Aaronic priest, because he was not a member of the tribe of Levi or a descendant of Aaron (the brother of Moses). Catholic doctrine (based on Hebrews 7:13-17) states that Jesus was a priest in other order of Melchizedek and Catholic priests derive their priesthood through him. (Melchizedek is an enigmatic figure in Genesis 14:18–20 who prefigures Christ, because he is both a king and a priest who brings out bread and wine, blesses Abram and receives a 10th of all of his goods).

A common argument for why only men are priests is that since a priest acts in “Persona Christi” or in “the person of Christ” in his priestly functions, he must be male, because Jesus is male.

Personally, I find this to be a rather shallow argument that glosses over the fact that Jesus is also a Jew, was born of a virgin, and represents homo (all of humanity) not just viri (men only). Nevertheless, I do think being male is essential to being a priest, but not for the reason commonly given.

In my mind, a better argument focuses on the function of a priest in Judaism. A priest sacrifices (i.e., takes the life) of an animal and uses its blood to clean or purify the altar so that it is fit for the Spirit of Yahweh to enter and occupy the Holy of Holies. There God would forgive the sins of Israel and dispense favor upon his people.

In Genesis, God separates Eve (literally “life”) from Adam (literally “earth”). Eve is given the capacity to bring life into the world. So what does that leave Adam to do? Seems to me it leaves him with the capacity to take life. So motherhood and priesthood are a “life” and “death” thing, both of which are part of what it means to be like God. Death is not supposed to be a bad thing. It only came to be seen that way due to Original Sin. Priests are male, because ultimately what they do is associated with death. For the Aaronic priesthood, it was the death of the sacrificial animal. For the Catholic priesthood, it is the death of Jesus on the Cross.

To the best of my knowledge, none of this is official Catholic doctrine, but it makes sense to me and I think it fits the pieces together quite nicely without the need for conspiracy theories.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

I heard that the priesthood of Melchidech was only for males, but I haven’t verified it yet.

 

[Filumena379]

Luke, your line of thought is logical, and I admire the way in which the all pieces fit together. Unfortunately, it’s based on the erroneous premise that death, as you say,

is not supposed to be a bad thing. It only came to be seen that way due to Original Sin.

This is not actually the case, as clearly outlined in the Catechism: “Death is a consequence of sin. The Church’s Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man’s sin. Even though man’s nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin. “Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” is this “the last enemy” of man left to be conquered.”(§1008 CCC)

Death, as said above, was contrary to the will of God and is a consequence of sin, rather than something intended from the beginning and merely distorted by sin. While I therefore can’t agree with your thought process, I do admire it as I doubt I could have developed such a truly thoughtful approach.

 

[Elf01]

In Genesis, God separates Eve (literally “life”) from Adam (literally “earth”). Eve is given the capacity to bring life into the world. So what does that leave Adam to do? Seems to me it leaves him with the capacity to take life. So motherhood and priesthood are a “life” and “death” thing, both of which are part of what it means to be like God. Death is not supposed to be a bad thing. It only came to be seen that way due to Original Sin. Priests are male, because ultimately what they do is associated with death. For the Aaronic priesthood, it was the death of the sacrificial animal. For the Catholic priesthood, it is the death of Jesus on the Cross.

It takes both a man and a woman to give life.

 

[Luke6_37]

Luke, your line of thought is logical, and I admire the way in which the all pieces fit together. Unfortunately, it’s based on the erroneous premise that death, as you say,

Luke6_37:

is not supposed to be a bad thing. It only came to be seen that way due to Original Sin.

This is not actually the case, as clearly outlined in the Catechism: “Death is a consequence of sin. The Church’s Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man’s sin. Even though man’s nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin. “Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned” is this “the last enemy” of man left to be conquered.”(§1008 CCC)

Death, as said above, was contrary to the will of God and is a consequence of sin, rather than something intended from the beginning and merely distorted by sin. While I therefore can’t agree with your thought process, I do admire it as I doubt I could have developed such a truly thoughtful approach.

Good point. I am all for peer review!

If you are interested, let me offer a counter argument and we can see where it goes…

The Jewish tradition of the all-male priesthood vastly predates the doctrine of Original Sin, which was first formalized by St. Augustine in the 5th century. To this day, Jews reject this doctrine.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/judaism-s-rejection-of-original-sin

Since the Catholic priesthood is derived from Jewish tradition, what matters is not how Catholics today understand the meaning of death, but how a first century Jew would understand it.

To be honest, I’d have to do more research on how first century Jews understood death. However, given that they did not have a doctrine of Original Sin, it can’t mean the same thing as it does for Catholics today. Therefore, it is entirely possible that my premise is sound.

What do you think?

 

[rose321]

Diminish the role of women? The single greatest and most venerated created human being in the Catholic Church is a woman!

Respectfully toward and nicely said Diminish

Opinion only since the beginning of time our Heavenly Father has given …Woman the Highest Honor in serving.him?.
Many many OT Woman God has called in serving him in at his highest points in Time?
He continues in NT also?
Our Heavenly Father has bestow his Blessings favor upon many many many Woman, right?

NT She will be called Blessed among all Woman…so God Blessed also many Woman, correct?

NT The woman who… anointed Jesus feet, head with oils, preparing him ( Woman doing what only Priest could preform and to anoint ones …head was greater anointing then anointing ones feet) for Jesus death…
…Matthew 26:13 Amen I say to you where ever this gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be spoken in memory of her…

Our Heavenly Father, greatest Treasure, Wealth, his most Scared Holy Blessing… he has chosen to come through …The Womb of a Woman…a child, right? Has God not chosen and giving Woman the most… Highest Honor of all?

Peace

 

[ZMystiCat]

Would a conspiracy even be needed to diminish the role of women in that day and age? They could have just went with the predominant culture in that regard.

Well, the all-male priesthood was perhaps a bit weird to the Gentile converts.

At the same time, though, they may have found it a bit weird for a woman to be considered the greatest of all God created.

 

[edwest]

I’d like to point out that regarding certain earthly events, there are conspiracies to cover up what actually happened. Back to the topic:

http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p...p-ii_apl_19940522_ordinatio-sacerdotalis.html

 

[rose321]

At the same time, though, they may have found it a bit weird for a woman to be considered the greatest of all God created.

Respectfully opinion in pondering on ancient role of women not only in the early church, but Women also ruled mighty Nations also?

Motherhood is one of the Life’s Highest calling in the Bible is it not?
Women, of the Bible and mothers put their hope in the God of the impossible, he proves nothing is impossible with our Creator of all, does he not?

God gave women the …Highest Life… calling in his Creation plan of salvation for all right?

God’s greatest Treasure, Wealth, Holiest Sacred Gift, Powerful Blessings,…God has chosen to come through…The Womb of a Women… a child… Seems our Heavenly Father’s thoughts was never to reduce the role of Women, but to give Women his Highest calling, was it?

Old Testament Women God seem’s to chose at every one of his highest point in Time right?

:thinking:Eve… went on to fulfill her part of God’s great plan of the earth population, mother of Noah would this be true?

:thinking:Sarah -wife of Abraham, long barren…mother of Issac, tremendous faith, was childless?

:thinking:Ketruah -second wife of Abraham who bores him 6 more sons, God provides…you will be the father of many Nations right?

:thinking:Rebekah-wife of Issac, by which Abraham Covenant continues through?

:thinking:Jochehad -mother of Moses allowed tremendous faith in God toward the mass slaughter of Hebrew boys set her baby adrift in the Nile River, right?

:thinking:Hannah- long barren…mother of Samuel the Profit-most touching story in the whole bible, Hannah never gave up on God… dedicated her son to God in serving him…God spoke with him etc…Hannah Prayer …giving all Glory, worship to God… beautiful…is it not?

:thinking:Bathesheba -wife of David-next Solomon loved by God-grew up to become Israel greatest King–David line would come Jesus, right?

:thinking:Elizabeth - long barren. …mother of John Baptist–another miracle mother in the bible–like Hannah before her, Elizabeth was in old age…she like Hannah dedicated her son to God right?

:thinking:Anna-long barren–Loving mother of our Blessed Mary–Mother of Jesus

A Woman ( Mary?) Jesus choose a Woman, to draw ever so near him?Jesus chose a woman to prepare his body, head, feet, with anointing oils…a holy role only preformed by priest…Jesus has choosen a woman…for his.
Kingship…King of Kings?
Holiest Sacrifice offered up to the Father.
for the salvation for all his Creation…

…Anointing… ones head …is a greater anointing the anointing one’s feet is this true??

:thinking:Mary Magdalene…a woman…who was present at Jesus highest & lowest points throughout Jesus 3 year ministry? Again Jesus chose.a woman to prepare in anointing his body for burial, right?

Without Human kind greatest blessing of the Women, civilization and Life has we know it would not of prospered or existed maybe?

Peace

 

[rose321]

n Genesis, God separates Eve (literally “life”) from Adam (literally “earth”).

Respectfully nicely said ELFO1 leaving much to ponder on…thank you!

Opinion only respectfully toward…In Genesis our Heavenly Father does not seem to separate but to join the two as one maybe?

When the two become as one, then only is a great energy is created and needed, to bring forth…a child…the Human Being, Human Race, right?

Not bringing together as one…there would be no Kingdom, Family, Nation, Human being, no civilization, no population or Life as we know it, so would both Man and Woman be considered equal, having equal roles not placing one above the other, but both servant to in providing the needs and caring for each other?

Commanded …equally to Honor thy Father and Mother, right?

Ten Commandments Laws… given does not reduce the role of women does it?

There is no… Ten Commandment or Thou shall not…that states …Thou shall not commit adultery… commandment only applies for woman to obey… but does not apply for man to obey, does it?

In pondering Adam, Eve, Serpent…all them committed sin in Genesis,not just the woman right?
Adam excuse trying to blame it on the Eve, did not work with God, right? All 3 were punished…removed from his Garden right?
Seem our Heavenly Father was greatly upset with Adam for not protecting sheltering Eve from the serpent…right?
If man is to be head of the family, then as head, it is man’s responsibility to serve the women, in providing, sheltering, protecting, caring for the Woman right?

Note also in Scripture, Moses song out the Laws …while his sister Miriam did so for the woman, did she not?

Both Man and Woman are needed to bring forth the Blessings…of Life …a child right?

Priest are men and do not men ( whether a Father) and woman ( whether a mother)or whether still a child also associated with death?
We are all Human Beings, there forth we being human, finite all associate with death?

Little Therese of the child Jesus …There is no such thing as death, death is a agony we must all go through…unquote…

In ancient times even till this very day, Women ruled mighty, mighty Nations successfully also…search this out, amazing yet theses Women were never who ruled were ever taught about or ever given great recognition in what they accomplished or invented, why?

Interesting also highly intelligent Women throughout history passed, thou it was always written…recorded… by the hands of man, even the bible, right?

Man made laws? Woman were put to death in ancient time pass for committing adultery but not man? Yet Thou shall not commit adultery is a commandment to be obeyed by both men and woman, right?

Told the only sin that will never be forgiven is the one against the Holy Spirit right?

Peace opinions only…pondering on the role of women not only in the early church but throughout civilization also.

 

[1ke]

made it a point to deemphasize the role of women like Mary Magdalene and others

She was a disciple and is a saint. Those are both pretty important roles in the church. No one “diminished” Mary Magdalene’s role in the church.

This is nonsense.

This in turn lead to an all male priesthood

This is not what led to an all male priesthood. As has been discussed a million times in this forum, and is readily available to read in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis.

This does not feel right to me,

Because it isn’t.