We Are All Sedevacantists Now

[BillyHW]

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

I hope the mods don’t unleash their fury, but I’m sorry, I just couldn’t resist.



Universi Dominici Gregis

Seriously though, does anyone think this might present an opportunity to bring about reunion with some of the schismatic groups? Is there anything that we can do to get these schismatic groups to recognize the new pope?

Should the new pope forgive Bishop Levebre for his disobedience and let bygones be bygones?

What do you guys think?

 

[Genesis315]

Those who are separated have always been free to come back whenever they so desire.

 

[Annunciata]

:bigyikes: and double eek!

 

[jimmy]

All the SSPX and SSPV have to do is accept Vatican II and the new mass as a valid mass and they can come back into the Church.

 

[Ghosty]

John Paul II even pushed to have the Tridentine Mass more widely celebrated, so they don’t even have the excuse that they couldn’t do things “their way”. The doors are wide open for them, in fact many of us would like to have them back so we can have more weight in pushing for more widespread traditional services. They’re keeping themselves out, and it’s a damn shame, as we could use some of their moral fortitude minus their obstinant attitude towards the Magisterium.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

Ugh. I already heard the “Empty Chair” one over on Deacon Ed’s web site by one of “those” perople.

Very inappropriate comments at this time and I said so:tsktsk:

As for reunification, we will see. I am not that optimistic and see a further rift developing since a certain group will have no say in the next Pope.

PF

 

[pnewton]

I had the same thought. How wonderful it would be if groups that have splintered away would be open to the fact that the Holy Spirit will choose the right man for the job and embrace the next Vicar of Christ. Unfortunately such a choice would need to be made blind, without knowledge of who the man might be. To do otherwise would be a rejection of Catholic authority, what Scott Hahn calls cafeteria Catholics by coincidence (following catholic leadership only to the extent they agree with it).

 

[TNT]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Sede Vacante Stamp Issued by the Vatican, August 23, 1978
During One of Numerous Vacancies in the Papacy
Showing the Insignia of Crossed Keys Surmounted by a Conopaeum
Symbol of the Cameriarius, Who Governs the Church during a Papal Vacancy

 

[TNT]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Sede Vacante Stamp
There Was No Pope for a Time in 1939 after the Death of Pius XI

 

[Cherub]

If the new pope reinstates the Tridentine Mass as the norm all over the world, that would bring the schismatics back. I wonder what it would do to the progressives though. The shoe would definitely be on the other foot then.

 

[TNT]

pnewton:

I had the same thought. How wonderful it would be if groups that have splintered away would be open to the fact that the Holy Spirit will choose the right man for the job and embrace the next Vicar of Christ.

I’m not sure where this comes from. The HS can choose all He wants. The Electors are under free will. It is not lost in a Conclave. They can reject ANY Grace of the HS. Alexander VI, I pray was NOT the choice of the HS! As well as a small host of others
The only thing we have is certitude that a valid election was made if all the procedures were followed, which we cannot prove since the electors are sworn to secrecy on a confessional level.
There is nothing that I am aware of in Church Teaching that tells us the HS is the elector of the pope and the human electors are inspired to the level of Sacred Tradtion to just confim the HS’s choice, or that they lose free will, or that their will cannot go against the HS, ot that they cannot error in choosing the man best for the Church.
And if what I am saying is true, the the belief that the HS does the final selecting of the pope is a form of sentimental theology at best, and gnosticism at worst.

 

[TNT]

Cherub:

If the new pope reinstates the Tridentine Mass as the norm all over the world, that would bring the schismatics back. I wonder what it would do to the progressives though. The shoe would definitely be on the other foot then.

This will NOT happen even in the next 70 years.

Even if it did the schismatics or sede’s would not return. They have toooo many objections to VATII and subsequent teachings that would have to be suppressed in order to suit them.
Believe me, I live with an SSPX’r.

It would take a pope that was a rerun of Pius X to bring them back in.

 

[Cherub]

TNT:

This will NOT happen even in the next 70 years.

Even if it did the schismatics or sede’s would not return. They have toooo many objections to VATII and subsequent teachings that would have to be suppressed in order to suit them.
Believe me, I live with an SSPX’r.

It would take a pope that was a rerun of Pius X to bring them back in.

You are right. I was oversimplifying the position of the schismatics. I don’t really know very much about them or the various bones they pick with Rome, but anything could happen, couldn’t it? A rerun of Pius X could arise and declare Vatican II null and void or mistaken, couldn’t he?

 

[TNT]

Cherub:

You are right. I was oversimplifying the position of the schismatics. I don’t really know very much about them or the various bones they pick with Rome, but anything could happen, couldn’t it? A rerun of Pius X could arise and declare Vatican II null and void or mistaken, couldn’t he?

Of course. And we’d know we had entered the Promised Land.

 

[pnewton]

TNT:

I’m not sure where this comes from.

And if what I am saying is true, the the belief that the HS does the final selecting of the pope is a form of sentimental theology at best, and gnosticism at worst.

It comes from faith. While the electors do have free will, grace builds on nature. I am not gnostic and only temporarily overly sentimental. What I said is my own understanding and freely acknowledge I may be wrong. I am also perhaps premature to discuss the future in light of this time of mourning.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

TNT:

This will NOT happen even in the next 70 years.

Even if it did the schismatics or sede’s would not return. They have toooo many objections to VATII and subsequent teachings that would have to be suppressed in order to suit them.
Believe me, I live with an SSPX’r.

It would take a pope that was a rerun of Pius X to bring them back in.

I agree.

Many of the schismatics use the Tridentine as their hammer since it is the most visible of the disagreements they have. If you would listen to many of them, you would think that is the ONLY reason for the schisms. It is not and I am wondering if many of the newer adherants even know the REAL reasons for the schisms.

PF

 

[Genesis315]

Cherub:

A rerun of Pius X could arise and declare Vatican II null and void or mistaken, couldn’t he?

Well, I don’t think he could declare it mistaken, that would say the Church had taught error. Theoretically, he would have to use some sort of null and void argument saying that it wasn’t a valid council or something. That’s not going to happen either. So all in all, Vatican II is here to stay and the schismatics are going to need to submit to the authority or remain ouside the Church. Luckily for them, she understands that the Church extends outside the visible Church and it is possible for those who are not formal members to be saved. Although, the old “those who reject you, reject me” is not a in their favor.

 

[TNT]

Some History:

On November 29, 1268, when Pope Clement IV (1265-1268) died, there began the longest period of interregnum or vacancy of the papal office in the history of the Catholic Church. The cardinals at that time would have assembled in conclave in the city of Viterbo, but through the intrigues of Carol d’Anglio, King of Naples, discord was sown among the members of the Sacred College, and the prospect of any election grew more and more remote. After almost three years, the mayor of Viterbo enclosed the cardinals in a palace, allowing them only strict living rations, until a decision would be made which would give to the Church its visible head. At last, on September 1, 1271, 33 months after the vacancy occurred, Pope Gregory X was elected to the Chair of Peter.

During this long period of vacancy of the Apostolic See, vacancies also occurred in many dioceses through the world. In order that the priests and faithful be not left without a spiritual shepherd, bishops were elected and consecrated to fill the vacant sees without any papal approval. It was understood that this was an emergency situation, and, as St. Thomas Aquinas had stated: “Necessitatem legem non habet” (Summa Theologica, IIIa, Qu. 80, A. 8; III Suppl., Qu. 8, A. 6). There were accomplished during this time twenty-one known elections and consecrations in various countries. The most important aspect of this historical precedent is that all these consecrations of bishops were ratified by Pope Gregory X, who consequently affirmed the lawfulness of such consecrations, even though no pope had approved of them in advance.

Other lengthy periods of *sede vacante* have included:

• After the death of Pope Nicholas IV (1288-1292), there was a vacancy of almost 28 months (April 4, 1292-August 29, 1294).
• After the death of Pope Celestine IV (1241-1241), there was a vacancy of almost 20 months (November 10, 1241-June 25, 1243).
• After the death of Pope St. Fabian (236-251), it was impossible to proceed at once to the election of a new pope because of the persecutions by the Emperor Decius. During that interval of 10 months when the Seat of Peter was vacant (January 20, 250-March 251), the Roman Catholic Church was governed by a college of priests.