We Catholics can learn from the Amish

[elijahson]

The recent tragedy of the Amish school children in Pennsylvania brought home a lesson to me and i hope, perhaps to all of us. The facts of this terrible crime are that a lone gunman, Mr. Charles Roberts, murdered, or perhaps better put, executed 5 precious souls and seriously wounded 5 others, before taking his own life. In the midst of all this dire sorrow, it has been reported in the news, that not long after this tragic event, one of the Amish elders paid a visit to the widow of the man responsibile for taking the lives of their children. What i have heard is that he took this murderer’s wife in his arms and said “WE WILL FORIVE YOU”. When i first heard this i shuddered with the power of such a scene and statement. It is my conviction that the shuddering i felt was also felt in the infernal regions below, acts of this nature always do. I hope that i have my facts straight, if i do not please feel free to correct me. However, contemplating the facts that I do have, I have come a conclusion regarding our Clergy Abuse crisis here in the U.S. This crisis has financially crippled many dioceses and even bankrupted one to date that I am aware of. Whle not making light of the torture suffered by those who were abused, i wish the cry “We Will Forgive You” was as loud as “We Will Sue You”. Christ has called us to forgive yes even those charged with our well being and trust and who betrayed that trust. Why are we not hearing more about forgiving these pedophile priests or at least as much as we hear of the new lawsuits brought against dioceses? Has not Christ called us not to return evil for evil? I am not sure about the whole suing aspect, but let us not forget that the dioceses we bankrupt by these lawsuits (just or not) serve the sacraments to those who had nothing to do with the curel abuse they suffered and who are merely seeking and hoping for the grace of God. I am not saying that suing a diocese is wrong, but why are we not as vocal about forgiveness? Christ always calls us to forgive. I am not sure if he ever calls us to sue…

“We Will Forgive You”…and a little child shall lead them…in this case the child is Amish…

 

[Della]

Once people have entered into litigation they are not very likely to cry: “We forgive you!”

The clergy abuse ought never to happened, and those responsible ought to pay the full penalty of the law, but what the victims do in regards to forgiving is up to them.

Besides, the situation of the Amish girls and the clergy abuse are very different from one another. The faith of many of the victims of clergy abuse was destroyed, along with their innocence. They may not be able to forgive until they can no longer feel the pain of being both molested and betrayed by those they trusted.

 

[elijahson]

Once people have entered into litigation they are not very likely to cry: “We forgive you!”

The clergy abuse ought never to happened, and those responsible ought to pay the full penalty of the law, but what the victims do in regards to forgiving is up to them.

Besides, the situation of the Amish girls and the clergy abuse are very different from one another. The faith of many of the victims of clergy abuse was destroyed, along with their innocence. They may not be able to forgive until they can no longer feel the pain of being both molested and betrayed by those they trusted.

Forgiveness is forgiveness, whether of murder or abuse…wouldn’t it be great to hear the words at least once along with or instead of the threat or litigation? while yes, the faith of these folks was terribly damaged, but the Amish kids lost their lives…why are we do we show more enthusiasm for litigation and not as much for forgiveness? I am not questioning whether they should pay…i am questioning our priorities as Christians…our responses to the wrongs done to us, yes, by those who should have been able to be trusted…if litigation stands in the way of the spiritual reality and grace of forgiveness, maybe we should think twice about it…it is not what happens to us that determines our destiny, but rather, how we respond. What if those who did the abusing truly repented and were forgiven by God of thier horrendous crime…and on the day of judgement it was not mentioned by Him, having been forgiven of? It is better to come down on the side of mercy…

Should they pay…i don’t know…should we forgive…absolutely…we are Christians first…anything else comes in a distant second

 

[BlestOne]

If the shooter had survived and the Amish said we forgive you, the shooter would still be prosecuted for murder… Just because we are forgiven our sins, does not mean that we don’t have consequences. This in part, is a basis for purgatory. We have to make straight our path to the Lord by accepting consequences for our sins, forgiven or not.

Whether the sin is murder or molesting children…forgiveness is only a part of it. The offender also has to “do his penance” so to speak. I can forgive my ex husband for walking out on me and our children, but he still has to pay child support (in my dreams he does anyway)

 

[Della]

Forgiveness is forgiveness, whether of murder or abuse…wouldn’t it be great to hear the words at least once along with or instead of the threat or litigation? while yes, the faith of these folks was terribly damaged, but the Amish kids lost their lives…why are we do we show more enthusiasm for litigation and not as much for forgiveness? I am not questioning whether they should pay…i am questioning our priorities as Christians…our responses to the wrongs done to us, yes, by those who should have been able to be trusted…if litigation stands in the way of the spiritual reality and grace of forgiveness, maybe we should think twice about it…it is not what happens to us that determines our destiny, but rather, how we respond. What if those who did the abusing truly repented and were forgiven by God of thier horrendous crime…and on the day of judgement it was not mentioned by Him, having been forgiven of? It is better to come down on the side of mercy…

Should they pay…i don’t know…should we forgive…absolutely…we are Christians first…anything else comes in a distant second

This isn’t about all Catholics being able to forgive here. Nor is it about all Amish being able to forgive. You’d have to ask the victims why they aren’t announcing forgiveness to the media instead of protesting and suing dioceses into bankruptcy. Like I said, most of these victims have lost their faith. They aren’t thinking like Catholics but like people who have been hurt beyond forgiving–not that they shouldn’t forgive. But you and I can’t tell them to do that if they no longer believe in forgiving, now can we?

 

[elijahson]

If the shooter had survived and the Amish said we forgive you, the shooter would still be prosecuted for murder… Just because we are forgiven our sins, does not mean that we don’t have consequences. This in part, is a basis for purgatory. We have to make straight our path to the Lord by accepting consequences for our sins, forgiven or not.

Whether the sin is murder or molesting children…forgiveness is only a part of it. The offender also has to “do his penance” so to speak. I can forgive my ex husband for walking out on me and our children, but he still has to pay child support (in my dreams he does anyway)

point well taken…but would’nt it be nice to hear at least at least a semi vigorous attempt at forgiveness as we hear of litigation? why do we give forgiveness and litigation equal footing in our rationale? which is superior?

 

[drforjc]

but like people who have been hurt beyond forgiving–not that they shouldn’t forgive.

Wouldn’t someone whose child has been brutally murdered be just as likely a candidate for being “hurt beyond forgiving?”

 

[Catherine_Grant]

This thread seems to be discussing sexual abuse by the clergy (and the public responses of victims), the recent shootings (and the public responses by victims), and forgiveness. While the last point is appropriate for the Spirituality forum, a thread centered on the other two points is not. Please keep this thread appropriate for the forum it is placed in. Thank you.

 

[undeserving]

This reminds me of Grace Staines, whose husband and two little sons were burned to death while they were sleeping in their jeep in Orissa, India, by Hindu fundamentalists. . Mrs Staines shocked and sufferring though she was, said clearly that she forgave their murderer. She continued her missionery work. Sorry i don’t have a link.

 

[THutch04]

I have to admit, the genuine forgiveness that the Amish community displayed really touched me when I heard about it. They chose to forgive someone who has changed part of their community; some will probably never feel quite as safe and secluded for awhile. It’s something I hope that if I were ever put in that situation that I would be able to do the same thing.

 

[Jeanette_L]

I think as Della has pointed out, there is a real difference between people whose faith is obviously strong, living out that faith by offering forgiveness for what seems to us to be an unforgivable offense; and people whose faith has been destroyed by the offense against them, and no longer have anything in them that urges them on to forgiveness.

The Amish were forgiving an outsider for his offense against their families and community, and this took great strength of faith, and we witnessed it in action.

The Catholics, or possibly former Catholics, were offended by insiders, guardians at that, of the same faith that should have been building them up, but instead tore them down. Their faith was not given the chance to strengthen for such an act of forgiveness.

But in all this, we are presuming that the pursuit of civil justice excludes personal forgiveness, which we cannot know. And, we don’t know the end of the stories either. We are all works in progress, God doesn’t give up on people that we may have written off!

Pray for those who have been scandalized that they can obtain healing and reconciliation with a loving God!

 

[elijahson]

I think as Della has pointed out, there is a real difference between people whose faith is obviously strong, living out that faith by offering forgiveness for what seems to us to be an unforgivable offense; and people whose faith has been destroyed by the offense against them, and no longer have anything in them that urges them on to forgiveness.

The Amish were forgiving an outsider for his offense against their families and community, and this took great strength of faith, and we witnessed it in action.

The Catholics, or possibly former Catholics, were offended by insiders, guardians at that, of the same faith that should have been building them up, but instead tore them down. Their faith was not given the chance to strengthen for such an act of forgiveness.

But in all this, we are presuming that the pursuit of civil justice excludes personal forgiveness, which we cannot know. And, we don’t know the end of the stories either. We are all works in progress, God doesn’t give up on people that we may have written off!

Pray for those who have been scandalized that they can obtain healing and reconciliation with a loving God!

Forgiveness has no restrictions regarding “insider” or “outsider”…what was mankind’s position when Christ called out in agony “Father forgive them, they know not what they do” should he have qualified his forgiveness? His forgiveness was for all, inside and outside…to qualify it as such is to become legalisitic…we just need to forgive…

 

[Dale_M]

This reminds me of Grace Staines, whose husband and two little sons were burned to death while they were sleeping in their jeep in Orissa, India, by Hindu fundamentalists. . Mrs Staines shocked and sufferring though she was, said clearly that she forgave their murderer. She continued her missionery work. Sorry i don’t have a link.

Certainly she was gifted with grace, but I think her name was Gladys Staines. She is a saintly woman. Thank you for bringing her story to our attention.

 

[MJE]

I suspect, if this tragedy happened w/ a community of Catholics, living together as the Amish, the response would be very similar.

 

[Jeanette_L]

Forgiveness has no restrictions regarding “insider” or “outsider”…what was mankind’s position when Christ called out in agony “Father forgive them, they know not what they do” should he have qualified his forgiveness? His forgiveness was for all, inside and outside…to qualify it as such is to become legalisitic…we just need to forgive…

The ability to forgive such offenses as we have been addressing, comes only from a strong, mature faith. We can talk about the requirement of forgiveness all the day long, but living out your faith in the face of such circumstances brings out what is already on the inside. You are speaking as if forgiveness can come from someplace other than strength of faith, which comes by the Grace of God, and it cannot.

God tells us to forgive all things, I understand. He also is the only one who accomplishes in us the faith that is necessary to do so. Sometimes this requires time and healing, that’s all I’m saying.

Why am I talking about time and healing when talking about the forgiveness of sexual abuse by priests? I would think it would be obvious. Betrayal of this nature carries it’s own special wounds that only God can heal. These wounds were inflicted upon children and adolescents who were unable to have the maturity of faith to even comprehend what it means to forgive, let alone be capable of doing it. And most of these were so wounded that they turned from their faith altogether. So to require the same capacity to forgive is just not reasonable.

But with God, all things are possible! And He can accomplish this in a person’s life, it just may not happen in the time frame that would make the rest of us happy.

 

[BlestOne]

point well taken…but would’nt it be nice to hear at least at least a semi vigorous attempt at forgiveness as we hear of litigation? why do we give forgiveness and litigation equal footing in our rationale? which is superior?

Do you not understand that forgiveness is just as much for the victim as the offender? When I go to confession I feel much better laying it at the feet of our Lord rather than burdening myself with negative feelings and attitudes like hate anger and resentment. These things interfere with my relationship with our Lord. By giving them to him, I feel free, happy and closer to God than before I confessed. This is what really counts isn’t it? Isn’t our relationship to our Savior more important to litigation?

Once a woman offended me. I didn’t speak to her for 4 years. Every time I saw her I got angry all over again. Finally I asked God for help and the next time I saw her I made an effort to say hi and talk to her. How did my not speaking to her hurt or punish her? It didn’t…she went along with life never knowing how it was eating me up inside. What did it do to me? It made me angry, resentful and it seperated me from the most important relationship in my life…my relationship with God! Boy I showed her huh? I just pray that everyone else is a quicker learned than I.

Today I try much harder to forgive much sooner than in the past.