We could learn a lot from Muslims.

[Brendan_64]

Just keep in mind, as Christians, we have to recognize that, even possessing SOME of the truth, they don’t possess ALL of it, and much of what they believe is just downright wrong. As Christians, we have to disagree with them when they deny Jesus was ever crucified, for instance…

Absoloutely correct.

But the fact that they are wrong in much of what they believe doesn’t in itself make them inherently wicked. And they are still our neighbours, as much as any Christian is, and as such we are commanded to love them as ourselves. Condemning and castigating individuals, who we don’t even know, simply because they belong to a religious faith we disagree with, is quite clearly going against what Jesus commanded us to do.

 

[Tomdstone]

That is a naive simplification of what happened in Northern Ireland. So naive and simplistic as to make in a complete inaccuracy.

I grew up in Northern Ireland and it was NOT a religious conflict.

It was a political conflict, pure and simple. It was not about each side fighting for their religion. That is a remark regularly made by people who clearly know nothing whatsoever about the conflict there (or about Irish history) other than reading headlines in the newspapers. No paramilitary organisation claimed that what they were doing was on behalf of any religious faith. It was purely a political war with the IRA waging war against the British Army in order to try achieve a United Ireland as a first step to the IRA/Sinn Fein trying to gain control over all of Ireland in order to set up an Irish Socialist Republic. The Loyalists then reacted to this in order to try to prevent the IRA from achieving their aims. The people were then divided along ‘tribal’ lines (whether they wanted to be or not) and drawn into the mess. It was NOT about religion.

And with regards to the IRA there was/is a large Marxist/Atheist tradition within their ranks. The IRA was not remotely interested in defending any aspect of Roman Catholicism whatsoever. There is not one mention anything to do with Roman Catholicism in the constitution of the IRA, and the aim of the IRA is to establish an Irish Socialist Republic. How well do you think Catholicism (or any other religion) would fare in a Socialist Republic set up by an organisation with a sizeable Marxist/Atheist contingent within their ranks?

How many Catholics were marching in the Orange Day parades?

 

[aprilfloyd]

This post is interesting, even though it centres on fasting, I am interested in what appear to be such strong views on different parts of the overall ‘church of god’ so to speak. Muslims (and Jews) worship the same god as catholics. It would make sense if they developed similar rituals and traditions and some posters should maybe keep that in mind

 

[aprilfloyd]

How many Catholics were marching in the Orange Day parades?

(agree)

What you see in Ireland may be the case, but the ‘overspill’ effect into the west of scotland is very much about catholics/protestants in the last 60/70 years. It’s religous bigotry and prejudice has been ‘scotland’s shame’ for a long long time. and manifests itself in ugly violence and sectarianism

 

[Brendan_64]

How many Catholics were marching in the Orange Day parades?

None, because Orangemen hailed from the ‘other tribe’.

People who claim that what was happening in Northern Ireland (and still is, although to a lesser degree at the moment) was a religious conflict do not know what they are talking about and clearly have never lived there.

 

[Brendan_64]

I’m informed on this matter as a result of spending 22 years of my life growing up in Northern Ireland between the mid 1960’s and mid 1980’s when it was really kicking off. I didn’t ask to be part of one of the ‘tribes’ in the conflict, but like everyone else that decision was not mine to make.

It wasn’t about religion, it was about politics. And it sure as hell wasn’t in any way romantic, it was very nasty.

But as you say, it has nothing to do with this thread.

Perhaps our disagreement regarding the nuances of my views might be influenced by whether we regard ourselves as an Irish Republican or Social-Democratic Nationalist?

 

[aprilfloyd]

Curious Brendan, on your view on the ‘influence’ of the troubles in scotland.

It is hard to imagine, the trouble existing in Ireland had the one religion (or none) and it was just a question of independence (as in Scotland)

 

[jediliz]

This is why the Catholic fasting does not include forgoing water. Water is vital to survival

 

[colmywaykurtz]

Absoloutely correct.

But the fact that they are wrong in much of what they believe doesn’t in itself make them inherently wicked. And they are still our neighbours, as much as any Christian is, and as such we are commanded to love them as ourselves. Condemning and castigating individuals, who we don’t even know, simply because they belong to a religious faith we disagree with, is quite clearly going against what Jesus commanded us to do.

Yes, absolutely.

 

[johnnyjones]

That is a naive simplification of what happened in Northern Ireland. So naive and simplistic as to make in a complete inaccuracy.

I grew up in Northern Ireland and it was NOT a religious conflict.

It was a political conflict, pure and simple. It was not about each side fighting for their religion. That is a remark regularly made by people who clearly know nothing whatsoever about the conflict there (or about Irish history) other than reading headlines in the newspapers. No paramilitary organisation claimed that what they were doing was on behalf of any religious faith. It was purely a political war with the IRA waging war against the British Army in order to try achieve a United Ireland as a first step to the IRA/Sinn Fein trying to gain control over all of Ireland in order to set up an Irish Socialist Republic. The Loyalists then reacted to this in order to try to prevent the IRA from achieving their aims. The people were then divided along ‘tribal’ lines (whether they wanted to be or not) and drawn into the mess. It was NOT about religion.

And with regards to the IRA there was/is a large Marxist/Atheist tradition within their ranks. The IRA was not remotely interested in defending any aspect of Roman Catholicism whatsoever. There is not one mention anything to do with Roman Catholicism in the constitution of the IRA, and the aim of the IRA is to establish an Irish Socialist Republic. How well do you think Catholicism (or any other religion) would fare in a Socialist Republic set up by an organisation with a sizeable Marxist/Atheist contingent within their ranks?

Stay focused. Did Catholics kill Protestants and Protestants kill Catholics? Don’t over do it trying to show that the nuances of history change my point.

My example remains accurate. Seemingly good religious people acted fanatically.

 

[smaneck]

That is a naive simplification of what happened in Northern Ireland. So naive and simplistic as to make in a complete inaccuracy.

It is likewise a naive oversimplification to blame terrorism in the Islamic world on the religion.

 

[Brendan_64]

Stay focused. Did Catholics kill Protestants and Protestants kill Catholics? Don’t over do it trying to show that the nuances of history change my point.

My example remains accurate. Seemingly good religious people acted fanatically.

On what basis do you make the assumption that the people killing one another in Northern Ireland were “good religious people”? What makes you think the people killing one another had even any religious beliefs at all?

You fail to understand. In the Northern Ireland conflict the label ‘Catholic’ or ‘Protestant’ had nothing whatsoever to do with the person’s religious beliefs. There were ‘Catholic’ atheists, and ‘Protestant’ atheists. Everyone in Northern Ireland (even Jews) were assigned into a particular ‘camp’ (Protestant or Catholic) regardless of what that particular person believed. Religious belief had absolutely nothing to do with it. Once assigned a camp (which you had no choice in the matter) you could never leave (and stiil can’t) that camp (regardless of what you happened to believe, or not believe). The labels ‘Catholic’ and ‘Protestant’ when used in relation to the Northern Irish conflict have nothing whatsoever to do with religious belief.

The motivations for how people acted had absolutely nothing to do with anything regarding religion. And how do you account for the role of the British Army in this? Where they acting as Protestants fighting Catholics in the name of religion, even though they will have had English Catholics in their ranks (as well as many atheists, just like the Republican and Loyalist paramilitaries)?

Believe me, if you think that the conflict in Northern Ireland had anything to do with people being motivated by their religious beliefs (or anything to do with their religious beliefs) then you really are talking out of your backside.

 

[johnnyjones]

On what basis do you make the assumption that the people killing one another in Northern Ireland were “good religious people”? What makes you think the people killing one another had even any religious beliefs at all?

You fail to understand. In the Northern Ireland conflict the label ‘Catholic’ or ‘Protestant’ had nothing whatsoever to do with the person’s religious beliefs. There were ‘Catholic’ atheists, and ‘Protestant’ atheists. Everyone in Northern Ireland (even Jews) were assigned into a particular ‘camp’ (Protestant or Catholic) regardless of what that particular person believed. Religious belief had absolutely nothing to do with it. Once assigned a camp (which you had no choice in the matter) you could never leave (and stiil can’t) that camp (regardless of what you happened to believe, or not believe). The labels ‘Catholic’ and ‘Protestant’ when used in relation to the Northern Irish conflict have nothing whatsoever to do with religious belief.

The motivations for how people acted had absolutely nothing to do with anything regarding religion. And how do you account for the role of the British Army in this? Where they acting as Protestants fighting Catholics in the name of religion, even though they will have had English Catholics in their ranks (as well as many atheists, just like the Republican and Loyalist paramilitaries)?

Believe me, if you think that the conflict in Northern Ireland had anything to do with people being motivated by their religious beliefs (or anything to do with their religious beliefs) then you really are talking out of your backside.

We are way off topic but do you mean to tell me NONE of the Catholics or Protestants were religious people?

Yes , remove religion from the issue entirely as if it has no bearing on these matters. Get back to answering a question which you have avoided. Is an individual burning a Quaran in the US or elsewhere going to cause major turmoil based on “admirable” religious zeal?