We *have* to sin?

[PatK63]

Why did the angels sin? Pride! Adam and Eve wanted to be like God. Pride.

 

[bfree1216]

Thanks so much for your insight, Hodos! A few thoughts:

Sin is not a defining characteristic of man. Man was created without sin. It is a defining characteristic of fallen man.

True and important distinction that I missed! But still, if we are all fallen men, and this is a characteristic of ours, is this not something we have to do?

Our free will is not free, it is in bondage to sin.

Clarify what you mean here by our free will is not free? Is this not a contradiction of terms? Or maybe clarify the idea that we are in “bondage” to sin?

Nowhere does the Bible say that sin is the consequence of free will.

Also true! My apologies on phrasing that awkwardly. When I wrote “Sin is an act of free will” I simply meant one cannot fall into sin without full consent (knowledge + want + will/action). At least, this is what I think is the case? Because this next quote underneath maybe raises some questions about this:

In fact, one can sin unintentionally and not be aware of it

If sin requires knowledge + want + will/action, how can one sin unintentionally? Would this be by an uninformed knowledge base, disordered wants, and/or a weak will? (I realize I might be answering my own question here).

Seriously, thanks again! I realize this whole idea of “having to sin” is some sort of weird heresy I’ve been fighting in the back of my mind for a while now, and I know it’s not true. I’m just trying to understand the exact reasons why it’s not true. Everyone’s time and insight on this subject is greatly appreciated!

 

[Vico]

Ok so follow my thought process here and let me know where I go wrong.

Jesus is like us in every way but sin (I can’t remember if this is a Bible verse or a doctrine of the Church). So we can imply that sin is a defining characteristic of man.

In this way, we have to sin, no? I mean, not at all times, by any means, but at one point or another, we have to sin? (“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23). And this refers to personal sin—an act of free will—not original sin, am I wrong?).

But this would be pre-determinism. But by definition, sin is an act of free will. But if sin is a result of free will, how would we have to sin? What am I missing, or how do these ideas work together?

(P.S. I’ve been posting on CAF a lot lately because I realized lately I’ve had all these unanswered questions about the faith. You all have been so, so helpful. Thank you for all your insight!)

“There is absolutely no predestination to sin as a means to eternal damnation.”

Pohle, J. (1911). Predestination. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

Catechism

404 … By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin , but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state .294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

As to actual sin, venial sin is a voluntary act.

1862-3 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent. … "Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness."134
1875 Venial sin constitutes a moral disorder that is reparable by charity, which it allows to subsist in us.
1876 The repetition of sins - even venial ones - engenders vices, among which are the capital sins.

 

[Hodos]

Clarify what you mean here by our free will is not free? Is this not a contradiction of terms? Or maybe clarify the idea that we are in “bondage” to sin?

So this goes back to the Fall. God didn’t just create us, put us on the earth with no purpose or guidance, and walk away. God created us for a purpose, to act in God’s image and rule over creation (see Genesis 1). He communicated his will for us (be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth and rule over it as image bearers of God), and communicated to us that we are not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Our will was dependent on God’s command to us. He didn’t give us an option in this matter, he said do this. The fact that we chose not to even though we were completely resting upon the grace that God had given us at the creation is inconceivable. As a result our will is corrupted and in bondage to sin. Do you have to sin? No, you weren’t created for the purpose of sin. You were created to do God’s will in his creation. Can you of your own will free yourself from sin? Nope. That’s why we have Christ. Is it fair? Don’t care, that’s how it is, you are responsible for your sin, Christ is responsible for your salvation.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

You know I’m not theologically sure that is the best way to look at it but it sure sounds good!

 

[Hodos]

No worries. I can understand the difficulty doing so. Dietrich Bonhoeffer has some really profound commentary on these subjects in his books Creation and The Fall, and Ethics. I highly recommend them if you are so inclined. I think he really does justice to the Biblical text and puts it in light of the entire story of redemption.

 

[bfree1216]

You all have helped me clear this up in a truly positive way. Just wanted to say a major thank you to all of you for your insights!

 

[PatK63]

So all does not include Jesus because He is the Son of God but does include Mary who is the mother of God and spouse of the Holy Spirit? Interesting!

 

[goout]

PatK63:

We all sin. St Paul said that. Jesus and Mary didn’t. To get to heaven we have to be repentant sinners. So the important thing, IMO, is to recognize our sins and repent. We should pray for people who believe that they have not sinned.

Jesus didn’t sin since He was the Son of God and was the sacrifice for us. Mary the mother of Jesus sinned since she was a human. Like you said Paul said we all sin.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Romans 3:23

If Mary were sinless this verse wouldn’t be true.

By the same logic, if we held the bible to isolated proof texts, you should look out the window and see a hammered metal dome in the sky.
Why isn’t it there, when it says such in scripture?

 

[fhansen]

In this way, we have to sin, no? I mean, not at all times, by any means, but at one point or another, we have to sin? (“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23). And this refers to personal sin—an act of free will—not original sin, am I wrong?).

It’s not quite like that. While the Reformers taught that concupiscence is an aspect of the state we call Original Sin, basically meaning that fallen man inherited some kind of 'sin nature" from Adam & Eve making it impossible for him not to sin, the Catholic church teaches that concupiscence is not sin itself but rather the “tinder for sin” a struggle for man. Man’s “falleness”, the state of Original Sin, consists in spiritual separation from God, also known as the “death of the soul”, not in a changed or totally corrupted or depraved nature. Basic human nature remained the same.

The problem, the reason that this separation brings death, is that man was made for communion with God, ‘apart from Whom we can do nothing’, to paraphrase John 15:5. We’re lost without Him, the very Source of our life, not knowing where we even came from, if anywhere, what we’re here for, if for anything, and where we’re going, if anywhere. Fallen man is his own “god”, and must navigate the moral waters on his own, often times unsuccessfully, with sin resulting. We have no real connection with God and this is exactly why Jesus came, when the time was ripe, to definitively reveal the existence of and true nature of God, restoring the “knowledge of God” that was lost to man at the Fall, and thus reconcile us with Him so we may have union with Him as Jesus always did. Everything Jesus said and did involved this revealing, this revelation.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

In Adam, man "preferred himself to God" as the catechism teaches, seeking autonomy from Him. We’re here now, in this world, to learn for ourselves of the devastating foolishness of that choice. Either way, it’s not impossible for man to perfectly and consistently refrain from sin; it’s just impossible for him to do so apart from God. Due to our weaknesses and pride and limitations and desires and doubt, we will generally struggle with sin all of our lives. But the Church teaches that this life is a journey, and a good one even with its sufferings, a journey to perfection if we get on that path to begin with, and a journey that God is always there to help us with along the way. We just have to want it; we just have to want Him.

 

[John121]

What you are describing is the curse of our flesh from evil knowledge, in a untrained will.

This is like asking a new born child to run a marathon.

Two people in history that I know of did not sin Virgin Marry and God both has no original sin.

The rest of us are cursed I have a lot of issues about how events unfolded and I don’t agree that Lucifer should be let free to destroy people by God as he’s to powerful !

 

[goout]

You mixed up my post with another.

 

[John121]

Maybe I’m writing in so many threads no wonder !

 

[PatK63]

Very true! It does say that Jesus was conceived, the power of the most high will come over you, by the Holy Spirit.

For something to be true does it have to be in the Bible. If so, is that in the Bible?