"Wealthy Catholic Church"

[AKDee]

Crusades and Inquisitions?

Honestly I think there’s a statute of limitations on trying to correct for issues that happened many hundreds of years ago. And not just for the Church, but for governments. If you try to correct for mistakes you feel the Church made, would you not also have to correct for mistakes governments made? Move borders to where they were back then? Restore nations that were invaded? Etc.? Perhaps we could give Spain back to the Muslims? Should all caucasians leave North America because that originally belongs to Native Americans? How far back do you want to correct for, or are you simply being selective about this and targeting only the Catholic Church?

 

[CatholicHockey7]

My discomfort isn’t with the art or property the Church owns. I would never say I think those things should be sold off, because I see the Church as holding those for the Common Good.

I do have a level of discomfort with the cash assets the Church has, particularly the Vatican. On the one hand we are told to help the poor out of our pockets, as well as give to the Church within our means, and on the other the Church itself is quite wealthy in cash assets. I got 7 things in the mail from various Catholic charities asking for money yesterday alone. 4 in the mail the day before. I’m being hit up left and right for my very limited cash resources. And I recognize that various ministries are expected to support themselves, as are each Parish. But if the Vatican really has billions in cash assets, what is that money for?

I don’t think there is anything wrong asking the question. Perhaps there’s a good reason. I haven’t really seen any “good reason” answers here, but largely a bunch of defensive ones.

While I don’t know the actual reason, I can think of at least one reason to hold on to large sums of cash for perfectly legitimate reasons.

It’s entire possible the cash assets held by the Vatican Bank to gain interest, and that interest could be what the various charities are relying on. One percent of 1 Billion is still 100k. That’s not insignificant.

They could also be there to be invested on the charities’ behalf. Even a conservative, low-risk investment portfolio in the U.S. market alone yields 2-4 percent.

This is all pure speculation, of course. There are probably as many theories as there are people in the Catholic Church.

One quick note, though. Assume the Catholic Church does have 8 billion euros in the Vatican bank. That’s only about 6 euros per Catholic. Just a little perspective.

 

[SonOfMan]

Honestly I think there’s a statute of limitations on trying to correct for issues that happened many hundreds of years ago. And not just for the Church, but for governments. If you try to correct for mistakes you feel the Church made, would you not also have to correct for mistakes governments made? Move borders to where they were back then? Restore nations that were invaded? Etc.? Perhaps we could give Spain back to the Muslims? Should all caucasians leave North America because that originally belongs to Native Americans? How far back do you want to correct for, or are you simply being selective about this and targeting only the Catholic Church?

How difficult is it to give back pillaged art and treasures?

 

[Corki]

My discomfort isn’t with the art or property the Church owns. I would never say I think those things should be sold off, because I see the Church as holding those for the Common Good.

I do have a level of discomfort with the cash assets the Church has, particularly the Vatican. On the one hand we are told to help the poor out of our pockets, as well as give to the Church within our means, and on the other the Church itself is quite wealthy in cash assets. I got 7 things in the mail from various Catholic charities asking for money yesterday alone. 4 in the mail the day before. I’m being hit up left and right for my very limited cash resources. And I recognize that various ministries are expected to support themselves, as are each Parish. But if the Vatican really has billions in cash assets, what is that money for?

I don’t think there is anything wrong asking the question. Perhaps there’s a good reason. I haven’t really seen any “good reason” answers here, but largely a bunch of defensive ones.

I am not sure where you are getting the numbers of “billions in cash assets”. Can you cite a source? I think you may be adding up the cash assets and reserves of all of the dioceses and parishes world wide to get that number.

Not trying to be defensive but you keep switching back and forth between what “the Church” has as assets and what the Vatican does. The Vatican itself only has an operating budget of about $300 million and usually runs in the red. The Vatican city budget is a little better, turning a slight “profit” but its assists are almost all in the buildings, land and art - not cash.

 

[AKDee]

I am not sure where you are getting the numbers of “billions in cash assets”. Can you cite a source? I think you may be adding up the cash assets and reserves of all of the dioceses and parishes world wide to get that number.

I was referencing a comment another person said, in that they said the Vatican had $7-$8B in assets. It was a comment on page 1.

 

[Corki]

I was referencing a comment another person said, in that they said the Vatican had $7-$8B in assets. It was a comment on page 1.

It was 7-8 Billion euros. And that was in reference to the Vatican Bank which is not “the Church” nor really a bank. It is properly called the Institute for the Works of Religion. It is a clearing house for money that goes to various charities and missions. Someone mentioned getting solicitations for various Catholic charities. The Vatican Bank, for example, often makes no interest loans to religious organizations to build schools and hospitals in third world countries. The charity then solicits operating funds to keep the hospital, school or mission going. The assets of the “Vatican Bank” are not just money sitting there collecting interest. Some is invested but most is constantly flowing in (donations) and out (to fund the charities).

There have been periods of time when the Institute for the Works of Religion has been mismanaged and even the victim of corrupt functionaries. We should all object to that and not defend it. But I don’t see why anyone would object to the Institute itself or to its volume of works.

 

[AKDee]

It was 7-8 Billion euros. And that was in reference to the Vatican Bank which is not “the Church” nor really a bank. It is properly called the Institute for the Works of Religion. It is a clearing house for money that goes to various charities and missions. Someone mentioned getting solicitations for various Catholic charities. The Vatican Bank, for example, often makes no interest loans to religious organizations to build schools and hospitals in third world countries. The charity then solicits operating funds to keep the hospital, school or mission going. The assets of the “Vatican Bank” are not just money sitting there collecting interest. Some is invested but most is constantly flowing in (donations) and out (to fund the charities).

There have been periods of time when the Institute for the Works of Religion has been mismanaged and even the victim of corrupt functionaries. We should all object to that and not defend it. But I don’t see why anyone would object to the Institute itself or to its volume of works.

Okay. So is it your contention that the Catholic Church, and specifically the Vatican, do not have large cash reserves?

 

[Corki]

Crusades and Inquisitions?

Why? To the victors go the spoils. If the victors chose to give these acquired items and treasures to the Church, why should the Church give them back. And who would they give them back to? The individuals who lost most of the items (and in some cases, land) are long dead and the countries, in the rare cases where the items were owned by a country, mostly don’t exist anymore

 

[Kurisu35712]

How difficult is it to give back pillaged art and treasures?

Realistically speaking, how exactly would this be done and to whom would each and every thing be returned? Surely donated items are not part of your list, but say things rescued from Nazi Germany? It was owned by the Nazi regime, and these historical pieces are indeed on display for the public to view. Should these be returned? What about Picasso pieces? Would those go to Germany because the Nazis had them, or would they go to France because Picasso made them in France? Or would they go to Spain because that’s where he was from?

Would they be put in the Louvre or the Pompidou Centre? Why should the Pompidou have ownership if the Guggenheim is in Bilbao, Spain? Or would it go to whoever is in charge of Picasso’s estate?

None of this even begins to get into paintings by Leonardo da Vinci. Should they go to Florence because he was from there? Venice because he was there at one point? The Vatican because they were commissioned by the Church? Paris because he died there?

Furthermore, who gets the Mona Lisa? Florence? Or does the Uffizi already have enough da Vinci paintings? Should they then go to Rome? Does the Vatican get that one since they were paying for Leo’s other works? What about people in the US or Brazil or Japan who want to see the Mona Lisa? Who decides where it goes if it travels?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

How difficult is it to give back pillaged art and treasures?

Please do give us a list of ‘pillaged art and treasures’ from "the crusades and the inquisition’ that “the Vatican” possesses. Those two specifically were what you yourself mentioned.

Now I’m not denying that some crusaders pillaged, but what they took was for their personal use. If 'The Church" has to give things back, why not ask the 12th Earl of Dampshire and the Marquis de FouFou and the 45th cousin of El Cid to return the art work gracing their estates?

How about if at some point, descendents legitimately SOLD (or thought they could legitimately sell) a ‘pillaged treasure’ to somebody else? Does the Museum of Upper Bottom or the Musee D’arts in Marseille or the ‘free institute’ in Seville have to ‘give back’ those treasures?

 

[Corki]

Okay. So is it your contention that the Catholic Church, and specifically the Vatican, do not have large cash reserves?

No. I am saying the the Catholic Church is a huge world-wide entity. Parts of the Church have cash; parts do not. If the Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston has cash reserves but the Diocese of Tijuana has almost nothing, how do you classify that?

As for the Vatican, I have tried to find the equivalent of audited financials but to no avail. The revenue/income stream is usually in the red. The difference is often made up with a cash infusion from other entities. I am sure they have some cash reserves as required by general accounting practices to ensure things like pensions, building stabilization and infrastructure are funded. But the “wealth” of both the Vatican and Vatican City are almost all in non-monetary assets (art, real estate, architecture).

All of this is easily verifiable with a Google search. Even Wikipedia.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Furthermore, who gets the Mona Lisa?

Aside: Does the Church make some claim on the Mona Lisa*? Why does she not get to stay in the Louvre?

(* Treasure maps leading to the bones of Mary Magdalene and the fortunes of the Knights Templar excepted)


tee

 

[Corki]

Aside: Does the Church make some claim on the Mona Lisa*? Why does she not get to stay in the Louvre?

(* Treasure maps leading to the bones of Mary Magdalene and the fortunes of the Knights Templar excepted)


tee

I think the point was that if museums, including the Vatican, were expected to return all of their art to its original owners, lots of museums would have problems deciding what went where. Leonardo did so much of his work under commission or patronage of the Chuch whose to say she has no claim?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I think the point was that if museums, including the Vatican, were expected to return all of their art to its original owners, lots of museums would have problems deciding what went where. Leonardo did so much of his work under commission or patronage of the Chuch whose to say she has no claim?

Right.

Plus, history and law themselves were different back then. Entire countries could wage war AND could conquer other entire countries and it was accepted practice. Why, England itself was conquered by the Normans in 1066. And England conquered France in the 15th century during the 100 years war (Henry V).

The wealth that belonged to Harold of England, legally crowned king, passed to William the Conquerer. The holdings of Saxon thanes etc. passed to Norman knights.

And while we’re at it, are most of us living in the US going to hand over our houses and institutions and lands back to the Native Americans?

 

[Kurisu35712]

Aside: Does the Church make some claim on the Mona Lisa*? Why does she not get to stay in the Louvre?

(* Treasure maps leading to the bones of Mary Magdalene and the fortunes of the Knights Templar excepted)


tee

No. Well… Not to my knowledge. My point was that if the Vatican is to be forced to “return” all of the artwork it possesses, that, in order to be fair, every museum and collector should also be expected to return their exhibits to the rightful owners, whoever those may be. That point being that, realistically, that can’t happen. There’s too much bureaucracy in the way for one, not to mention the sheer expense and difficulty in moving any of those pieces, particularly ancient ones. You can’t just *move *a renaissance painting. At least the most famous ones generally have to be kept in a climate controlled, vacuum-sealed environment, free from dirt, chemicals, oxygen, fingers, bugs, sunlight and other bright lights, etc etc. to the point that moving many of those pieces becomes logistically impossible. They’re already protected and on display for the public. Moving them is likely to cause irreversible damage.

 

[Church_Militant]

The one thing that always makes me laugh about these allegations is the fact that no one ever seems to look at the Vatican financial statements which can be found on their site.

The Financial Statements for the Holy See for 2014 indicate a deficit of 25.621 M Euro which is similar to the deficit of 24.471 M Euro reported in the 2013 Statements. Had the same accounting treatment applied in 2014 been applied in 2013, the 2013 deficit would have been reported as 37.209 M Euro - the improvement in 2014 was largely due to favourable movements in investments held by the Holy See. The main sources of income in 2014, in addition to investments, include the contributions made pursuant to Canon 1271 of the Code of Canon Law (21 M Euro) and the contribution from Institute of Works of Religion (50 M Euro).

For 2013…

The Holy See has recorded a deficit of over 24 million Euros

I don’t see any of the people badmouthing the “wealth” of the church going deficit due to their help to the poor around the world and since most of what they spend is what I and other faithful Catholics have given them to use as they feel led by the Holy Spirit, I’m alright with that.

Here’s something else to consider…

Even if you are not Catholic, this is eye opening:

When the Catholic Church was founded, there were no hospitals. Today, one out of five people in this Country receive their medical care at a Catholic hospital.

           When  the Catholic Church was  founded, there were no schools. Today, the  Catholic Church teaches 3  million students a day, in its more than 250  Catholic Colleges and Universities, in its more than 1200 Catholic High  Schools and its more than 5000 Catholic grade schools. Every day, the  Catholic Church feeds, clothes, shelters and educates more people than  any other organization in the world.

 

[Ignatius]

 

[Duane1966]

Since the last thread on this topic was closed before I got a chance to post, I have started a new one.

This article does a fantastic job of explaining the Church’s supposed wealth.

impracticalcatholic.blogspot.com/2013/03/ask-tony-why-doesnt-catholic-church.html?m=1

And this one:

ignitumtoday.com/2013/07/07/how-wealthy-is-the-catholic-church/.

What makes the Church wealthy is what you and I bring to it, and I am not talking monetary.

 

[Eliza10]

I just want to say thank you to those who answered my questions on how to answer questions about Church “Wealth”. It is REALLY helpful! I also appreciate the links to past threads on the same topic. I was waylaid the past few days with things happening around home and when I got back here not only did I have a slew of great answers but the thread was closed. So I am posting here in this same subforum where it was to say: Thanks you very much! I appreciate it!