Wen Does Life Begin?

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Jennifer123 said:
Sharing DNA is not relevant. Human DNA has only the correct amount of chromosomes present to be a human being.

DNA from a skin cell does not equate to a human being - a skin cell can only be a skin cell. Human DNA in an embryo has everything in it to be a human being, including making the skin cell DNA activate to be a skin cell.
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Human DNA in a skin cell also has everything the DNA in the embryo has. It’s the same thing. No difference. Same chromosomes. The skin cell DNA is not any different from the embryo’s DNA.
 
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Jennifer123:
I measure success by achieving one’s objective. The pro-choice folks have done this, so I say they succeeded.

Perhaps the objecive of the pro-life folks is to maintain some particular standard in their actions. If that is the objective, and if they have maintained such a standard, then I would say they have also succeeded.

I have made no moral judgements. It doesn’t take a moral judgement to look up an abortion clinic in the yellow pages. Observation then shows abortion is available. That’s the objective of the pro-choicers. So I say they succeeded.

So, it’s a win/win.
 
HoppityRedux said:
Human DNA in a skin cell also has everything the DNA in the embryo has. It’s the same thing. No difference. Same chromosomes. The skin cell DNA is not any different from the embryo’s DNA.
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As of now - the skin cell DNA is only activated to create more skin cells. When I guess in the future we can isolate skin cells and tell its DNA to grow an embryo, then I guess we can have a discussion. Otherwise, as of today, itching a scratch doesn’t equate to murder.
 
Jennifer123 said:
As of now - the skin cell DNA is only activated to create more skin cells. When I guess in the future we can isolate skin cells and tell its DNA to grow an embryo, then I guess we can have a discussion. Otherwise, as of today, itching a scratch doesn’t equate to murder.
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Skin cells of animals have been used to clone the whole animal. There is no need to wait for the future.
 
Jennifer123 said:
Not true but widely believed. No embryo has been produced from a skin cell.
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It is true say no embryo has been poduced from a skin cell alone.

It is also true to say an embryo has been produced from the implantation of skin cell DNA in an egg from which the nucleus has been removed.
 
HoppityRedux said:
It is true say no embryo has been poduced from a skin cell alone.

It is also true to say an embryo has been produced from the implantation of skin cell DNA in an egg from which the nucleus has been removed.
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Skin cell DNA was not used in the one instance in which you obviously are claiming (Dolly). It was a mammary cell from a sheep that had been dead for six years, not from Dolly’s “mom”. But that misconception is hard to prove false because it has been assumed as true for so long. Repeat something false for long enough and people will assume it’s true. Tactics known well by the COD and pro-choice industry.
 
mosher said:
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ribozyme:
Fine it does, but I challenge what makes the embryo special besides its membership in the species Homo sapiens. I argue life is nothing special but a throng of molecules that undergo Darwinian evolution.
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Fine I can accept that. I also have no problem with that in any way. This may come as a suprise to some but I am glad that you expressed this point. This allows for the real conversation to happen and that is the issue of rights and dignity. That is a far more iteresting conversation.
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When I rejected religion, I had to acknowledge that humanity and all of life itself is nothing but molecules that undergo Darwinian evolution. Since I know a lot of biochemistry, I had no problem accepting this. However, acknowledging this made me extremely depressed and emotionally unfilled. I usually combat this by reading scientific literature, but it does not completely eliminate the depression.

More importantly, I do not see any dignity in humanity; all I think we should do is to prevent human suffering. I see nothing that makes humanity sacred or special besides consciousness.
 
Jennifer123 said:
Skin cell DNA was not used in the one instance in which you obviously are claiming (Dolly). It was a mammary cell from a sheep that had been dead for six years, not from Dolly’s “mom”. But that misconception is hard to prove false because it has been assumed as true for so long. Repeat something false for long enough and people will assume it’s true. Tactics known well by the COD and pro-choice industry.
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I said nothing about Dolly. Many more mice than sheep have been cloned.
 
ribozyme said:
When I rejected religion, I had to acknowledge that humanity and all of life itself is nothing but molecules that undergo Darwinian evolution. Since I know a lot of biochemistry, I had no problem accepting this. However, acknowledging this made me extremely depressed and emotionally unfilled. I usually combat this by reading scientific literature, but it does not completely eliminate the depression.

More importantly, I do not see any dignity in humanity; all I think we should do is to prevent human suffering. I see nothing that makes humanity sacred or special besides consciousness.
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I’m so sorry you feel this way. Look, I see from your profile that you are young. I’m not saying that to be condescending, I know there are plenty of people your age that have been through more than I have being a bit older than yourself, but I say that because I think it may be wise to give yourself some more time before you reject anything completely. :twocents:

Darwinian evolution is not the end-all of theories, it’s the best theory we may have going that helps us to understand where we may have come from, but seriously, mathematically it’s almost impossible. Furthermore, if you look at it objectively, it almost requires as much blind faith as religion to believe in it as fact. Does that mean it is fruitless to study it? No - but be aware you are putting your faith in something.

Give yourself time. We are made in the image and likeness of God, who is perfection. That in and of itself gives us a special dignity, if only we respond to that grace.
 
ribozyme said:
When I rejected religion, I had to acknowledge that humanity and all of life itself is nothing but molecules that undergo Darwinian evolution. Since I know a lot of biochemistry, I had no problem accepting this. However, acknowledging this made me extremely depressed and emotionally unfilled. I usually combat this by reading scientific literature, but it does not completely eliminate the depression.
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Your rejection of religion is something I would like to talk about in another thread. I find the concept … interesting.
ribozyme said:
More importantly, I do not see any dignity in humanity; all I think we should do is to prevent human suffering. I see nothing that makes humanity sacred or special besides consciousness.
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Perhaps what is happening here is a sort of jumping to conclusions. When I speak of dignity I am not speaking of sacredness nor necessarily that humanity has a special quality. While later in the conversation I would affirm both of those aspects of humanity but when it comes to intrinsic dignity then I have not even gotten to that point yet. Nor does acceptance of an intrinsic dignity necessitate the other two.
 
mosher said:
Your rejection of religion is something I would like to talk about in another thread. I find the concept … interesting.

Perhaps what is happening here is a sort of jumping to conclusions. When I speak of dignity I am not speaking of sacredness nor necessarily that humanity has a special quality. While later in the conversation I would affirm both of those aspects of humanity but when it comes to intrinsic dignity then I have not even gotten to that point yet. Nor does acceptance of an intrinsic dignity necessitate the other two.
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Could you elaborate on what gives human dignity in a secular moral system.

Here is my own personal story (I was not writing it as a story for my own reasons to reject religion as it was about skepticism)…

iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=163978

We could start a thread about it.
 
ribozyme said:
I am curious though, do you believe that the souls of this miscarried babies are in heaven or in limbo?
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IN heaven. Where else?
My understanding is that Limbus partum was always a theory rather than a Dogma. The CCC is silent on Limbo, Cardinal Ratzinger (Now Pope BXVI) in the Ratzginer, contended that it was always a theory and that it is related to ensuring that parents understanding the importance of Baptising their children as soon as possible following birth.
However, our understanding is that the Mercy of God is endless, so assuming this to be true, we can confidently place in His care the miscarried, aborted, stillborn, neonatal deaths in His wonderful hands, knowing that in His Mercy He will find a way for the children to be saved. The precious Blood of Jesus can reach into the limbo/nothingness and effect a rescue mission.
God Bless
Grace Angel.
 
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