Were Chesterson and Belloc anti-semitic?

[rwoehmke]

Anti-Semitite has a very specific meaning. It means an adherent of the nineteenth century movement which promoted hatred of Jews on purely non-religious grounds.
Catholics are effectively disqualified from being anti-Semites.

That may well be but historical evidence would indicate that Catholics , in the crusades for example, sent more than a few Jews to their maker. Actually the Church itself, while not promoting killing of Jews, did issue rules about when Jews could leave the Ghetto during the week, what they could wear, certain forms of dress to identify them in a group, etc. I think it may not meet the definition above, but they sure were not treated as equals except when they had money to lend.

 

[GKC]

How could they have a systematic animus against Jews when
they spoke out against Nazi atrocities against Jews and defended
Jews when they were being slandered ? That’s not systematic animosty,that’s more like wavering or vacillating. And the Jews were bound to be viewed as alien and inimical to British society,if only on account of their need to preserve their religious identity,just like devout Catholics are bound to be viewed as alien and inimical to American society.

As I said, the “anti-Semitism” of Belloc and Chesterton was a different creature from Hilterian anti-Semitism. But it was a problem. I doubt that a few posts on a message board will provide the sort of background that 45 years collecting would do. Here’s some references off the shelf, that come most readily to hand:

G.K. CHESTERTON/Lawrence Clipper, pp.56-57, 93, 143.

OLD THUNDER, A LIFE OF HILARIE BELLOC/Joseph Pearce, pp.152, 180, 198-203, 276.

G.K. CHESTERTON - PHILOSOPHER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO/Quentin Lauer, S.J., pp.141-143, *passim *.

GILBERT KEITH CHESTERTON/Masie Ward, pp.263-264.

THE MIND OF CHESTERTON/Christopher Hollis, 132-140.

CHESTERTON AND THE EDWARDIAN CULTURAL CRISIS/John Coates, pp.14-15.

WISDOM AND INNOCENCE, A LIFE OF G.K. CHESTERTON/Joseph Pearce, p.444 and following.

HILAIRE BELLOC/A.N. Wilson, pp. 188, 257-261.

THE NOVELS OF G.K. CHESTERTON/Fr. Ian Boyd,* passim*.

There was also a very good article on the subject in THE CHESTERTON REVIEW, about 25 years ago (IIRC), but I don’t have time to look it up.

It may require a little reading to understand what I am saying, and what the authors cited are saying, in one way or another, about Belloc and Chesterton. Points to remember: Belloc and Chestrton believed in a sort of secret stratum that ran society, in the poilitical sense and economic, through wealth, and that most of the main culprits were Jewish. It had little or nothing to do with their religiousity. It was financial, and seen as alien to the national culture. This attitude was not unique to Belloc or Chesterton at the time.

An understanding of the Marconi scandal is helpful to seeing what was meant. Try THE MARCONI SCANDAL/Frances Donaldson, for details.

As I said, it will require some study in the era, the men, and the subject, to understand, and you going to have to do it on your on.

GKC

 

[anthony022071]

As I said, the “anti-Semitism” of Belloc and Chesterton was a different creature from Hilterian anti-Semitism. But it was a problem. I doubt that a few posts on a message board will provide the sort of background that 45 years collecting would do. Here’s some references off the shelf, that come most readily to hand:

G.K. CHESTERTON/Lawrence Clipper, pp.56-57, 93, 143.

OLD THUNDER, A LIFE OF HILARIE BELLOC/Joseph Pearce, pp.152, 180, 198-203, 276.

G.K. CHESTERTON - PHILOSOPHER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO/Quentin Lauer, S.J., pp.141-143, *passim *.

GILBERT KEITH CHESTERTON/Masie Ward, pp.263-264.

THE MIND OF CHESTERTON/Christopher Hollis, 132-140.

CHESTERTON AND THE EDWARDIAN CULTURAL CRISIS/John Coates, pp.14-15.

WISDOM AND INNOCENCE, A LIFE OF G.K. CHESTERTON/Joseph Pearce, p.444 and following.

HILAIRE BELLOC/A.N. Wilson, pp. 188, 257-261.

THE NOVELS OF G.K. CHESTERTON/Fr. Ian Boyd,* passim*.

There was also a very good article on the subject in THE CHESTERTON REVIEW, about 25 years ago (IIRC), but I don’t have time to look it up.

It may require a little reading to understand what I am saying, and what the authors cited are saying, in one way or another, about Belloc and Chesterton. Points to remember: Belloc and Chestrton believed in a sort of secret stratum that ran society, in the poilitical sense and economic, through wealth, and that most of the main culprits were Jewish. It had little or nothing to do with their religiousity. It was financial, and seen as alien to the national culture. This attitude was not unique to Belloc or Chesterton at the time.

An understanding of the Marconi scandal is helpful to seeing what was meant. Try THE MARCONI SCANDAL/Frances Donaldson, for details.

As I said, it will require some study in the era, the men, and the subject, to understand, and you going to have to do it on your on.

GKC

I can understand what you’re saying, but I think it’s unfair to call them anti-semetic when they were (gratefully) so inconsistent with their prejudices,mistrust and suspicions. They knew what was right and what was wrong well enough to denounce real anti-semitism and to stick up for the Jews. It would be better to say that they had mixed feelings,contradictory attitudes regarding the Jews.

 

[gus]

Chesterton was a vigous opponent of Eugentics.
The false science of racial superiority which was popular science in his time.This was imbraced by many of the intelectual elite of the day.This is true Anti-Semitism
Its ironic that the decentants of these types. You known who you are. Use these terms like anti-semitic in an attempt to destroy the reputation of a man like Chesterton . When its was actually your cultural icons who embraced this craziness.
I believe Belloc also got into a debate with one of these so called scientific giants of the day.

 

[GKC]

I can understand what you’re saying, but I think it’s unfair to call them anti-semetic when they were (gratefully) so inconsistent with their prejudices,mistrust and suspicions. They knew what was right and what was wrong well enough to denounce real anti-semitism and to stick up for the Jews. It would be better to say that they had mixed feelings,contradictory attitudes regarding the Jews.

And I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that this is not an informed opinion on the subject.

GKC

 

[anthony022071]

And I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is that this is not an informed opinion on the subject.

GKC

You don’t have to well-studied in the era, the men and the subject in order to figure out the extent of their anti-semitism,where it ended,and how their moral conscience proved proved greater than it. We can observe that the same kind of belief about a Jewish secret stratum are current today. What matters to me is that they ultimately denounced the real anti-semitism and were willing to defend the Jews.

 

[GKC]

You don’t have to well-studied in the era, the men and the subject in order to figure out the extent of their anti-semitism,where it ended,and how their moral conscience proved proved greater than it. We can observe that the same kind of belief about a Jewish secret stratum are current today. What matters to me is that they ultimately denounced the real anti-semitism and were willing to defend the Jews.

Yes. That’s what is meant by distinguishing between Hitlerian anti-Semitism, and that of Belloc and Chesterton. To know something of the men helps in making that distinction. Studying the references listed helps to know something of the men.

GKC

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I can understand what you’re saying, but I think it’s unfair to call them anti-semetic when they were (gratefully) so inconsistent with their prejudices,mistrust and suspicions. They knew what was right and what was wrong well enough to denounce real anti-semitism and to stick up for the Jews. It would be better to say that they had mixed feelings,contradictory attitudes regarding the Jews.

Things looked very different before the war to after it.

Most people were very anxious that war with Germany should be avoided. So there was a certain amount of trying to find common ground with the Nazis, entirely different in flavour to post war Nazi apologetics, which are designed to celebrate Hitler’s atrocities. Before 1939 these almost all lay in the future.

 

[GKC]

Things looked very different before the war to after it.

Most people were very anxious that war with Germany should be avoided. So there was a certain amount of trying to find common ground with the Nazis, entirely different in flavour to post war Nazi apologetics, which are designed to celebrate Hitler’s atrocities. Before 1939 these almost all lay in the future.

I’m not sure that is an accurate statement, in itself, but it is is unrelated to the type of theories Belloc and Chesterton and others of the late victorian and Edwardian period were espousing, long before Hitler and company. As some have correctly pointed out, as the nature of the Hitleran anti-semitism became evident, both Bellc and Chesterton spoke against it.

GKC