Were the first 16 bishops of Rome modalistic?

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Before the doctrine of the trinity, how did the first popes of Rome view God. The following comment was made to me from Mr. Oneness man so this is why I am asking. The first 16 Bishops (Popes) of Rome were Modalist Monarchians (Oneness). This s a matter of Church history. See J. N. D. Kelly. Early Christian Creeds.a prominent academic within the theological faculty of Oxford University and Principal of St Edmund Hall, Oxford between 1951 and 1979. According to Kelly Modalist Monarchianism (Oneness) was an “older orthodoxy” of the Church.
 
From what I know, we’ve always believed in the doctrine of the Holy trinity (Even from the time of the apostles). All doctrines are like that. We only publicly declare it as a doctrine when it is being threatened, they just took it as a given that all Christians believed it. This is same for any doctrine, such as the Immaculate Conception.😉
 
This is a bit technical to answer, but I will try to help you with a few thoughts.
  1. One place to look at what one of these early bishops of Rome thought would be in the Apostolic Fathers, the letters of Clement. Without a reference, I would hesitate to say what he thought. Similarly, other early writings might give some indication–but such writings, especially those from Popes, are not too common. Apart from Clement himself, I’m not sure we have anything in particular by an early Pope. Damasus I (4th Cent) and Leo (+461) are about the earliest I’m aware of after Clement. Not saying there isn’t anything, just that I’m not aware of it.
You might try to reverse the argument: what’s the evidence that they were modalists? Presumably he has more than general handwaving, that “everyone back then was modalist, so the Popes must have been too.”
  1. In general, before the council of Nicaea the language was not as developed technically, so that it can be harder to determine what a given person actually believed.
 
One thing you have to be careful with the Oneness Christians which are primarily UPC Pentecostals is that they have no fear in misrepresenting, changing, and outright adding quotes to the writings of the Fathers to support their positions. What I would tell your friend is to provide the evidence. Give me the quotes of these popes and where they are located and then go back and read that quote in context.

I am very interested in their answer for this is something new that they are attempting. I used to be a UPC Pentecostal before I became Catholic and did alot of research on their Oneness doctrine (have a few books in my library from their side) and have not come across this lie before. So if you can keep us updated please.

Like I said I would ask him/her to prove it. Give you the evidence.
 
ERose said:
One thing you have to be careful with the Oneness Christians which are primarily UPC Pentecostals is that they have no fear in misrepresenting, changing, and outright adding quotes to the writings of the Fathers to support their positions. What I would tell your friend is to provide the evidence. Give me the quotes of these popes and where they are located and then go back and read that quote in context.

I am very interested in their answer for this is something new that they are attempting. I used to be a UPC Pentecostal before I became Catholic and did alot of research on their Oneness doctrine (have a few books in my library from their side) and have not come across this lie before. So if you can keep us updated please.

Like I said I would ask him/her to prove it. Give you the evidence.
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ERose…God bless you!! My brother has married a UPC girl. She converted to Catholicism. Her dad is a minister and is trying to convince my brother that the first bishops were modulists. Any help you can give I would appreciate!!
 
Like I said force him to prove it. Reason why I would take this route is because he can’t prove it. It is a fabrication. You see they use these types of ploys because they know very few people will fact check them. So they know they can get away with it most of the time. If your brother puts back on his court for evidence he will most probably back off.

I do recommend to remind your brother to respond in charity, because we must realize that the reason his father in law is trying to convert him is due at least for concern of the soul of his daughter and most probably your brothers as well. In other words he believes he is doing the right thing. God bless!
 
What made you pull away from the oneness sect into Catholicism? Welcome home by the way!
 
joclucsylv said:
What made you pull away from the oneness sect into Catholicism? Welcome home by the way!
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Thank you. I have been a full Christian for over 20 years now, thank God.

What pulled me away quite honestly is the Bible. When I became pentecostal I was coming from a non-religious background so I really had no preconditions about doctrine and such. So the UPC was my first experience with Christianity and it was a great experience for me in all honesty. I liked the people and they were very welcoming for the most part. But I did not become Christian for the fellowship in all honesty and asked God to teach me and I believe that he did. The passages I remember that influenced that mentality is the passages that refer to “knock and it shall be opened” “ask and you shall receive” and I did.

Anyway, I read the Bible alot at this time. Probably went through it nearly twice the first year and I had questions. Well it got to the point that my pastor and the various evangelists that were visiting us could not effectively answer my questions. In fact it got to the point that I was told that I should be asking those types of questions. So I started to doubt what my church was teaching me was true and I started to languish some about what to do.

Probably the biggest turning point was one night during a revival a member spoke in tongues above all the others and after a short period of time some other member interpreted what the other spoke and it was a simple message: “My children return to Me”, well alot of the kids in the service came up to the front for alter call, but that message meant something else to me. It convicted me and I got a very strong feeling that this message was telling me that I was in the wrong place, so I left.

How I become Catholic is a different story, but this is the path I took out of the UPC.

God bless
 
I tell you, if you can find any writings of the first popes other than Clement (95AD) and Victor (185AD), you will be doing good.

I’d like to see the guy prove his claim, which is up to him.
 
NotWorthy said:
I tell you, if you can find any writings of the first popes other than Clement (95AD) and Victor (185AD), you will be doing good.

I’d like to see the guy prove his claim, which is up to him.
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There seems to be alot from Ignatius though. He says out of all of them Ignatius was the most modalist. He is so lost. I honestly pray for him.
 
joclucsylv said:
There seems to be alot from Ignatius though. He says out of all of them Ignatius was the most modalist. He is so lost. I honestly pray for him.
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Ignatius was not a bishop of Rome and I would challenge him on the comment that Ignatius was a modalist. I have read all of his writings and a modalist he wasn’t.
 
joclucsylv said:
There seems to be alot from Ignatius though. He says out of all of them Ignatius was the most modalist. He is so lost. I honestly pray for him.
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Ummmmmm, Ignatius was not a Pope. He was Bishop of Antioch… the 3rd, I believe.
 
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