What are signs of poor vs good catechesis?

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I have heard an awful lot of statements from catholics my age saying we were poorly catechized. I graduated catholic gradeschool in 1981 and catholic high school in 1985, to give you an idea. Anyway, I wonder how my catechism fared. I know much more about my faith now than I did then but don’t know if that is because of deficient schooling then or just my increased devotion and study as an adult. All that said, what would signs be of a person who had poor catechesis then? What would a high school graduate with adequate catechesis know? What deficiencies would indicate poor schooling?

Well, to help concretize this , let me put some specifics on my situation, I had a good understanding of heaven, hell, and purgatory. I knew and understood the Eucharist as the real presence, and we attended adorations and benedictions. I knew and accepted the dogmas regarding Mary and prayed rosaries, although didn’t learn anything (or forgot) about her as the new ark or the new Eve. I knew about the saints and how to ask for their intercession. I knew just a tiny bit about indulgences. However, I didn’t know the pope was Peter’s successor, and just thought Catholicsm was one of many equal denominations. Oh yes, I was taught the difference between mortal and venial sin, although in high school was taught fundamental option theory (big no-no!). Oh yes, the sisters would often say “offer it up” but I never knew or had it explained what that meant. And finally, I knew about the paschal mystery, but never was aware of the deeper sacrifical meaning of the mass as a perfection of the sacrfices of the old testament. And I never learned a lick of latin…

Well, given that tiny snapshot of my schooling, would you say I left school with adequate catechesis? I know there are plenty of things I didn’t know like I know now, but I don’t know if that is because some of that is too deep for a child to know or if I really wasn’t taught enough. So I ask you, now that I have a child about ready to start kindergarten, what should she be learning as a well trained Catholic. Heck, I would also like to be sure I know enough of my own faith now as well! So, again, what are some indicators of good vs. poor catechesis in people?

Thanks,
LT
 
Ltravis, I did learn a lick or two of Latin before the Mass changed. I did not then and do not now know why the American bishops pretty much outlawed Latin in the Mass. I thought it added a strong flavor of sanctity to the ceremony and the sanctuary “back in the day” before our churches became stripped-down auditoriums where people loudly discuss barbecue plans the minute the organ stops.

(Just my opinion.)

My own schooling from Grade 1 through Grade 12 was Catholic. The catechesis was far from perfect, although I know it was much better than the CCD kids were getting.

I taught CCD for 12 years, while my own kids were in parochial school and later, when CCD became the only option. The fluffy, content-lite feelgoodism of the materials I was given to use sent me digging through my old books, including the Baltimore Catechism.

My original students are now in their 40s. Some of them even call me to ask my opinion on various moral dilemmas.Were they well-catechised? The fact is that my students came to me with all the lame “caring and sharing” baggage and left with those bags full of knowledge of such radical ideas as the Beatitudes, the Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy, mortal vs. venial sin, etc. Do they go to church every week? No. But how do they plan to catechise their kids? They have better sense than to blindly hand over their kids to the CCD program.

If the kids are going out to rake the leaves of the elderly for a service project before they can be confirmed, there are extremely liberal people running the show. If kids approach Confirmation with no knowledge of the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, that’s a bad sign.

In my experience (mine, not necessarily anyone else’s) I’d say that the most definitive mark of poor catechesis is failure to appreciate the Real Presence. You can look for other things, but disregard for the sacrament of the Eucharist is a dead giveaway.
 
ltravis said:
Well, to help concretize this , let me put some specifics on my situation, I had a good understanding of heaven, hell, and purgatory. I knew and understood the Eucharist as the real presence, and we attended adorations and benedictions. I knew and accepted the dogmas regarding Mary and prayed rosaries, although didn’t learn anything (or forgot) about her as the new ark or the new Eve. I knew about the saints and how to ask for their intercession. I knew just a tiny bit about indulgences. However, I didn’t know the pope was Peter’s successor, and just thought Catholicsm was one of many equal denominations. Oh yes, I was taught the difference between mortal and venial sin, although in high school was taught fundamental option theory (big no-no!). Oh yes, the sisters would often say “offer it up” but I never knew or had it explained what that meant. And finally, I knew about the paschal mystery, but never was aware of the deeper sacrifical meaning of the mass as a perfection of the sacrfices of the old testament. And I never learned a lick of latin…
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We are the same generation. You are between my older siblings in age. Your catechesis sounds pretty average for the time period. Do understand though, that even a good education during our time period was still severely lacking. We were in an awful place and we didn’t even know it. People who took “the spirit of Vatican II” were in charge and ran with it. They had no idea what the actual Vatican II taught. Many had never read the documents. Also, (my parents just told me this the other day,) there was apparently a book released seeking to “explain” the documents. This book, whatever it was, became THE book. People started to hold the explanations in it as if it were the documents of Vatican II. What VII really did was to uphold ALL of the deep history of the Church while seeking to root out recent innovations. What happened instead is that people ran with “the spirit” and actually created more innovations that were worse than before. We were the innocents in the cross-fire. We are finally seeing the pendulum swing back to the middle.

It wasn’t until years later that my family started to see how bad our education was. My mom has taken responsibility for it as she was of the parents referenced by the PP. She turned us over to CCD expecting that we would get the same great education she had received 30-40 years before. A great example of how bad it was… My 7th grade teacher was a nun on some sort of sabbatical. She firmly supported women’s ordination and was fairly angry with men in general, and the all-male priesthood in particular. Yeah, that did real great things for this very girly-girl who was trying to find her place in the Church and trying to understand her own developing sexuality, yeah right! 😉 (Disclaimer: I did have an awesome teacher in the 4th grade. She was entering the Church by taking instruction from a very holy priest and then teaching us the very beauty of what she was learning. If I knew anything real it came from her! She was the one where I learned all the real meat referenced by the PP)

Long story short, learn what you can now. The writings of our late Holy Father JPII have been amazing for me. He was OUR pope. It is no coincidence that he was our Shepherd at a time when the wolves were running rampant. I personally think that it is only because of him that I survived at all. He was deeply devoted to authentic Church teaching. His teachings on Theology of the Body came right in the middle of the sexual nightmare. I only wish I had discovered them during that time (1979-1984.)

Seek deeper understanding for yourself and know that your child’s education begins and ends in the family. That will help the most. Create an environment where your kids will want to ask questions, and then in turn you will have the answers. God bless you. Mine goes to school soon too!
 
I received a very good Catholic education because of the schools I went to. And I’ve continued to study and read all my life. Bishop Sheen, various periodicals, good sermons from excellent priests. I know how fortunate I’ve been.

Having said that, it breaks my heart that my children have nowhere near that level. Catholic schools are not an option here. The CCD program is debateable. And the other home environment and shuttling the kids back and forth makes it impossible to do anything but teach on the fly here.

I can only hope that my children do not stop learning their faith and that like most of us here, most of our knowlege of the faith came from self study as adults when we could truly appreciate what we were learning and felt it had relevance to us.

If I hear “it’s boring” one more time I’m going to gouge my eyes out with a spoon! What you knew is way more than most of the kids I encounter here in my town, if they are churched at all.

ARRGH! 🤷
 
This is a question with no correct answers. It depends on what each person considers “poor” and “good”. Is it just learning and memorizing every CCC rule? Or it can be a less focus on every CCC rule and applying social justice/charity work in the world? Neither one is right or wrong.

Also, people develop spiritually at different rates, while some teenagers may not seem to get it right after confirmation, they often come back and show that the teachings are still there but were just dormant for a few years.
 
If you think the Immaculate Conception refers to Jesus rather than Mary (like I did), your catechesis was deficient.
 
LT,

I am in my late 40’s which puts me in the generation that experienced pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II catechesis (mostly post, of course.) I worry often about the soundness of my catechesis. I keep studying and seeking understanding.

Here’s a suggestion: watch Fr. John Corapi on EWTN. He is an excellent catechist in my opinion. He has several different series on different topics. He also has a website where you can purchase his series if you cannot watch them on EWTN. (Also, on his website, there are little quizzes you can take to see what you know.) You will find you recognize some or most of what he is saying. If it’s new to you, you’re learning.

Your concerns are important. As a parent, it is primarily your responsibility to ensure that your children receive sound catechesis. You will have the most influence over what your children learn about their faith.Check out whatever catechism program will be used by your school or parish to see what is being taught. Live your faith. You’re the best role model.
 
ltravis said:
I have heard an awful lot of statements from catholics my age saying we were poorly catechized. I graduated catholic gradeschool in 1981 and catholic high school in 1985, to give you an idea. Anyway, I wonder how my catechism fared. I know much more about my faith now than I did then but don’t know if that is because of deficient schooling then or just my increased devotion and study as an adult. All that said, what would signs be of a person who had poor catechesis then? What would a high school graduate with adequate catechesis know? What deficiencies would indicate poor schooling?

Well, to help concretize this , let me put some specifics on my situation, I had a good understanding of heaven, hell, and purgatory. I knew and understood the Eucharist as the real presence, and we attended adorations and benedictions. I knew and accepted the dogmas regarding Mary and prayed rosaries, although didn’t learn anything (or forgot) about her as the new ark or the new Eve. I knew about the saints and how to ask for their intercession. I knew just a tiny bit about indulgences. However, I didn’t know the pope was Peter’s successor, and just thought Catholicsm was one of many equal denominations. Oh yes, I was taught the difference between mortal and venial sin, although in high school was taught fundamental option theory (big no-no!). Oh yes, the sisters would often say “offer it up” but I never knew or had it explained what that meant. And finally, I knew about the paschal mystery, but never was aware of the deeper sacrifical meaning of the mass as a perfection of the sacrfices of the old testament. And I never learned a lick of latin…

Well, given that tiny snapshot of my schooling, would you say I left school with adequate catechesis? I know there are plenty of things I didn’t know like I know now, but I don’t know if that is because some of that is too deep for a child to know or if I really wasn’t taught enough. So I ask you, now that I have a child about ready to start kindergarten, what should she be learning as a well trained Catholic. Heck, I would also like to be sure I know enough of my own faith now as well! So, again, what are some indicators of good vs. poor catechesis in people?

Thanks,
LT
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Hi LT, I’d say your catechesis was an excellent launching point for a young adult.

I’m fighting bitterness about my education. I grew up going to CCD at a liberal parish. I didn’t know that purgatory existed, that Jesus was trully present in the Eucharist, that there were degrees of sin (venial or mortal). I knew Mary was my mother and she was a perpetual virgin, but that’s about it. I knew there was Lent and Advent, Easter and Christmas, but nothing more about any feast days, not even Pentecost or Feast of the Immaculate Conception.

And, that’s just the big stuff. You can imagine what I didn’t know about apostolic succession, Bible history, Church history, redemptive suffering…

I’ve learned alot in the past 10 years or so since I returned to the Catholic faith. I mostly learned through reading, audio tapes, and through Familia (a faith formation program put on by Regnum Christi). Just in the past year or so, I’ve become more aware of the liturgy–because of CAF!

Learning the faith is so much fun with kids! It’s the best. My best suggestion is to go to a Catholic homeschooling conference and just visit the vendor hall. You will see so much!. look here

My kindergartener isn’t very “with” it. We just spend time reading Bible stories. The most fun time for a little guy is first communion prep. How wonderful is that!

fisheaters.com has some great devotional and catechesis material esp. here
 
Genesis315 said:
If you think the Immaculate Conception refers to Jesus rather than Mary (like I did), your catechesis was deficient.
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Unfortunately, that mis-conception also applies to many pre-Vatican II Catholics!

Once I was talking to a woman my own age in the office (both Catholics) and, since it was December, the subject arose as to why the Feast of the Immaculate Conception was on Dec. 8th. She said, “well, I would have thought that it would be nine months before Christmas.”
 
M-Dent said:
Fidelity (to the Magisterium) is certainly a good indicator.
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On further reflection, I agree this is a very good indicator. Our level of knowledge varies over our lifetime, but this one is the one that tells us if we are looking in the right direction for that knowledge.
 
leonie said:
Hi LT, I’d say your catechesis was an excellent launching point for a young adult.

I’m fighting bitterness about my education. I grew up going to CCD at a liberal parish. I didn’t know that purgatory existed, that Jesus was trully present in the Eucharist, that there were degrees of sin (venial or mortal). I knew Mary was my mother and she was a perpetual virgin, but that’s about it. I knew there was Lent and Advent, Easter and Christmas, but nothing more about any feast days, not even Pentecost or Feast of the Immaculate Conception.

And, that’s just the big stuff. You can imagine what I didn’t know about apostolic succession, Bible history, Church history, redemptive suffering…

I’ve learned alot in the past 10 years or so since I returned to the Catholic faith. I mostly learned through reading, audio tapes, and through Familia (a faith formation program put on by Regnum Christi). Just in the past year or so, I’ve become more aware of the liturgy–because of CAF!

Learning the faith is so much fun with kids! It’s the best. My best suggestion is to go to a Catholic homeschooling conference and just visit the vendor hall. You will see so much!. look here

My kindergartener isn’t very “with” it. We just spend time reading Bible stories. The most fun time for a little guy is first communion prep. How wonderful is that!

fisheaters.com has some great devotional and catechesis material esp. here
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Thanks so much for the encouragement, leonie. Regardless of how much I do or don’t know, I can’t but help feeling “cheated” by the instruction I had, especially when I see evidence of the new generation of young, enthusiastic, and orthodox priests JPII’s generation is spawning for our kids. At least I can take assurance in my daughter’s spiritual well-being, although my wife and I are going to be sure to be good teacher’s on our part anyway. Those are great resources too, so thanks! I was looking for a list like that fisheaters one. I see I have forgotten a lot of that stuff, but I remember being taught alot of it at one time, so that’s a good sign at least. Anyway, my proactive wife already has a set of preschool/kindergarten homeschool curriculum materials, as that was an option to us before enrolling her in the catholic school we ended up choosing.

And in your case, the fact that you were able to “catch up” on your own ititiative shows it is never too late and that seeds of faith must have been successfully planted for you somewhere along the way. You have just make a spiritual work of mercy here - I applaud you!

LT
 
ltravis said:
I have heard an awful lot of statements from catholics my age saying we were poorly catechized. I graduated catholic gradeschool in 1981 and catholic high school in 1985, I graduated in 1981… so I am a few yrs older to give you an idea. Anyway, I wonder how my catechism fared. I know much more about my faith now than I did then but don’t know if that is because of deficient schooling then or just my increased devotion and study as an adult. All that said, what would signs be of a person who had poor catechesis then? What would a high school graduate with adequate catechesis know? What deficiencies would indicate poor schooling?

Well, to help concretize this , let me put some specifics on my situation,

  1. *] I had a good understanding of heaven, hell, and purgatory. Me too

    *] I knew and understood the Eucharist as the real presence, and we attended adorations and benedictions. I had no clue about the real presence and had never heard of Eucharistic adoration.
    *]I knew and accepted the dogmas regarding Mary and prayed rosaries, although didn’t learn anything (or forgot) about her as the new ark or the new Eve. I owned a rosary, never prayed it, in fact never associated the mysteries with it…but I did know what the mysteries were. I never heard of the “New Eve” or “New Ark” concept.

    *]I knew about the saints and how to ask for their intercession. I knew just a tiny bit about indulgences. I did know about saints and asking for intercession but the only thing I knew about indulgences was what I read in my public school history book.

    *]However, I didn’t know the pope was Peter’s successor, and just thought Catholicsm was one of many equal denominations. No clue of any of this.

    *]Oh yes, I was taught the difference between mortal and venial sin, although in high school was taught fundamental option theory (big no-no!). Mortal/Venial…knew that What is fundamental option?
    *]Oh yes, the sisters would often say “offer it up” but I never knew or had it explained what that meant.Offer it up = Quit yer bitchin’

    *] And finally, I knew about the paschal mystery, but never was aware of the deeper sacrifical meaning of the mass as a perfection of the sacrfices of the old testament. Paschal mystery yes…the rest no
    *]And I never learned a lick of latin… I took latin for 3 months in 5th grade public school…basically all I knew were animal names and a few philosophical quotes…carpe diem, cogito ergo sum…
    Well, given that tiny snapshot of my schooling, would you say I left school with adequate catechesis?
    WHat do you think??? I would say you were way ahead of the game compared to me.
    I know there are plenty of things I didn’t know like I know now, but I don’t know if that is because some of that is too deep for a child to know or if I really wasn’t taught enough. So I ask you, now that I have a child about ready to start kindergarten, what should she be learning as a well trained Catholic.

    1. *]Real presence(maybe wait until 2nd grade on this)

      *]typical prayers (Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be, grace)

      *]saints and Blessed Virgin Mother…and their role as intercessors (read saint stories to her)

      *]God loves her and will never stop loving her
      *]teach her that mass is a celebration…a feast and show her that we are all happy to be there (trust me on this one)
      *]The blessed virgin mother is her other mother…her heavenly one.

      Heck, I would also like to be sure I know enough of my own faith now as well! So, again, what are some indicators of good vs. poor catechesis in people?
      Thanks,
      LT
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Bishop Lori while he was still in Bridgeport published a short list, half a page, of the essentials every Catholic child should know by 5th grade. It was published in Sower magazine, and I give that list (with permission) to our new parents. If I can find it I will post it or list the essentials when I get my work computer up and running again (heaven preserve me from summer interns who mess with my computer).
Bear in mind that concepts are presented in order for a reason, that everything cannot possibly be taught in 1st and 2nd grade in time for 1st communion, and that the vast majority of Catholic children receive little or no formal religious instruction after communion and confirmation, and then be a bet less harsh in judging what parishes are doing.

The presentation should follow the outline of the CCC which of course follow the Creed, presented in age appropriate ways:
God the Father, Creation, the Fall, the need for redemption
God the Son, Person of Jesus Christ, Paschal mystery
the Holy Spirit, his action in salvation history and in the Church, gifts and charisms
the Trinity
the role of Mary in salvation history and in the Church
communion of saints and Mystical Body of Christ
Sacramental economy, liturgy, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as participation in the salvific action of Christ (as well as celebration, thanksgiving, and meal, but sacrifice first).
Morality, commandments, beatitudes, works of mercy, social justice, in the hierarchy as outlined in the decalogue.
Prayer, formal, liturgical, private, mental, contemplative, Christian spiritual tradition, beginning with the Our Father.
 
LittleDeb said:
On further reflection, I agree this is a very good indicator. Our level of knowledge varies over our lifetime, but this one is the one that tells us if we are looking in the right direction for that knowledge.
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I must disagree. There are few deficiencies in my catechesis (having to memorize the Baltimore Catechism will do that for you), but as I’m sure you know, ‘fidelity to the Magisterium’ is not on my to-do list. Knowledge can be had without belief. If, however, that knowledge is demonstrably in line with the teachings of the Magisterium, I’d say we have our indicator.

ltravis, it sounds like you ended up with a lot of holes. I’m glad you’ve been taking the time to fill them up 🙂
 
I too had the fortunate opportunity of memorizing the Baltimore catechism – at 73 yrs of age, I can still draw from its’ wealth of knowledge – also had the opportunity of expanding this knowledge with catholic highschool ( Franciscan ) and also had the good Franciscans for my nursing education. I was even valedictorian of my nursing class, but – with all the knowledge aquired, it was still an abstract God that I knew. It wasn’t until I had a faith experience @ age 39 that Christ became REAL ( life begins @ 40 ! ) This happened when I was caring for my mother when she was dying of cancer. Thanks to my mom, Mary was always real to me and she eventually leads us all to her Son ! AD JESUM PER MARIAM !
 
ltravis said:
I have heard an awful lot of statements from catholics my age saying we were poorly catechized. I graduated catholic gradeschool in 1981 and catholic high school in 1985, to give you an idea. Anyway, I wonder how my catechism fared. I know much more about my faith now than I did then but don’t know if that is because of deficient schooling then or just my increased devotion and study as an adult. All that said, what would signs be of a person who had poor catechesis then? What would a high school graduate with adequate catechesis know? What deficiencies would indicate poor schooling?

Well, to help concretize this , let me put some specifics on my situation, I had a good understanding of heaven, hell, and purgatory. I knew and understood the Eucharist as the real presence, and we attended adorations and benedictions. I knew and accepted the dogmas regarding Mary and prayed rosaries, although didn’t learn anything (or forgot) about her as the new ark or the new Eve. I knew about the saints and how to ask for their intercession. I knew just a tiny bit about indulgences. However, I didn’t know the pope was Peter’s successor, and just thought Catholicsm was one of many equal denominations. Oh yes, I was taught the difference between mortal and venial sin, although in high school was taught fundamental option theory (big no-no!). Oh yes, the sisters would often say “offer it up” but I never knew or had it explained what that meant. And finally, I knew about the paschal mystery, but never was aware of the deeper sacrifical meaning of the mass as a perfection of the sacrfices of the old testament. And I never learned a lick of latin…

Well, given that tiny snapshot of my schooling, would you say I left school with adequate catechesis? I know there are plenty of things I didn’t know like I know now, but I don’t know if that is because some of that is too deep for a child to know or if I really wasn’t taught enough. So I ask you, now that I have a child about ready to start kindergarten, what should she be learning as a well trained Catholic. Heck, I would also like to be sure I know enough of my own faith now as well! So, again, what are some indicators of good vs. poor catechesis in people?

Thanks,
LT
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Other things that were lacking in the 70’s and 80’s were an understanding of Saints and the Communion of Saints, Baptism and Original Sin, The sacrificial nature of the Mass and the early Fathers and Martyrs of the Church.
 
I think the ability to defend the faith is important. When I was in high school, my sister and I met a baptist woman who quoted scripture “proving” that many of our Catholic beliefs were wrong. We had no scripture background and couldn’t refute her. We ended up joining the Baptist church. Our whole family ended up leaving the Church. To date, I am the only one to return. We need to know where these teachings come from.
 
pippin said:
I think the ability to defend the faith is important. When I was in high school, my sister and I met a baptist woman who quoted scripture “proving” that many of our Catholic beliefs were wrong. We had no scripture background and couldn’t refute her. We ended up joining the Baptist church. Our whole family ended up leaving the Church. To date, I am the only one to return. We need to know where these teachings come from.
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Pippin, Please ask your priest if he has any material to help you to fortify against the kind of attack that drove your family from the Catholic Church. I live where RC’s are a serious minority, and the Baptists and Pentacostals have fought hard - successfully - to make inroads among Catholics who were poorly catechized or for any other reason have not sufficiently armed themselves with Scripture.

If your priest can’t help, ask your local librarian to get some of these items for you: amazon.com/Catholic-Answer-Book-Peter-Stravinskas/dp/1931709815 and amazon.com/Catholic-Response-Peter-M-Stravinskas/dp/0879739134/ref=sid_dp_dp/002-1900518-3216855

The Protestants are wrong, Pippin.
 
LT,

It sounds like your catechesis left a lot to be desired, but it was definitely better than my own.

I remember going to confession on a retreat as a junior in High School, and being given a good number of Hail Mary’s to do as penance. I walked away from the priest, sobbing, because I didn’t know how to say the Hail Mary. Some poor chaperone had pity on me, and said each and every one of the Hail Mary’s with me.

Not only did I lack in the prayer department, I didn’t know how to recite the rosary, didn’t know what a novena was, didn’t understand the role of Mary and the saints in our faith. I didn’t understand the Magisterium, the Pope, or any of the roles within the Catholic church. I didn’t know about Purgatory, didn’t know about indulgences. Didn’t know why we light candles on occasion.

I learned all of this within the past five years, having read book after book on Catholicism.

I now teach Religious Education at my parish. I want to ensure that I do what I can to ensure that these kids grow up with more knowledge of our faith than I did.
 
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