What are the chances of our society becoming a two-class economy?

[Robert_Sock]

We can already see a downsizing of the middle-class by a much larger cost of living in proportion to income increases for the middle-class, but hopefully, we will also see an uplifting of those living in poverty. I know that for decades we have heard the government saying that there will be a “war” to end poverty in America, but this has yet to happen, yet I personally believe that things are about to change. We can see a ray of hope from the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation and the World Bank not only claiming an end to extreme poverty in the world but an uplifting of those in regular poverty as well. I think I can see where money will no longer be the key to this lower-class being able to find meaning and purpose in their life. From a religious perspective, I believe that the Holy Spirit will play a central role, with materialism playing less of a role in general.

 

[Xystus]

I know that for decades we have heard the government saying that there will be a “war” to end poverty in America, but this has yet to happen.

I thought the “war on poverty” was the nickname of some legislation signed by LBJ back in the 60’s. No?

 

[Tim_D]

I thought the “war on poverty” was the nickname of some legislation signed by LBJ back in the 60’s. No?

Yes; they spent trillions of dollars on it since then and the poverty rate has barely changed.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Yes; they spent trillions of dollars on it since then and the poverty rate has barely changed.

Did they spend that money on education and the creation of jobs specifically designed for those living in poverty?

 

[midori]

Someone famous once said that the poor would always be with us. I believe him.

However, I think that poverty will always be firmly entrenched in communities that disregard the concept of “the family”. Poverty comes from a lack of resources— not just financial resources, but also things like emotional resources, health, spiritual resources, support systems, relationships and role models, etc. Strong families provide many of those things. With a strong family, the lack of one or two of those resources isn’t felt so strongly and you can get by… but without a strong family in play, you can quickly lose your job or your home when the unexpected strikes.

So many people are relying upon the government to play the traditional role of “the father”— helping out financially with housing, with healthcare, whatever. But the government makes a pretty poor substitute for the real thing, and neither government programs nor NGO’s nor charities will ever solve the problem. But if society itself makes broken families/absent fathers/druggie mothers/promiscuity/etc as unpopular as, say, tobacco— you’d definitely see a difference.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Someone famous once said that the poor would always be with us. I believe him.

However, I think that poverty will always be firmly entrenched in communities that disregard the concept of “the family”. Poverty comes from a lack of resources— not just financial resources, but also things like emotional resources, health, spiritual resources, support systems, relationships and role models, etc. Strong families provide many of those things. With a strong family, the lack of one or two of those resources isn’t felt so strongly and you can get by… but without a strong family in play, you can quickly lose your job or your home when the unexpected strikes.

So many people are relying upon the government to play the traditional role of “the father”— helping out financially with housing, with healthcare, whatever. But the government makes a pretty poor substitute for the real thing, and neither government programs nor NGO’s nor charities will ever solve the problem. But if society itself makes broken families/absent fathers/druggie mothers/promiscuity/etc as unpopular as, say, tobacco— you’d definitely see a difference.

Yes, the poor will always be around, and I’m one of them based on my being on disability with a limited income, but I have a roof over my head and I feel very spiritual. Having a support network is important, but I choose to live like a hermit and I rely on God for all my social support.

Children in broken families have it very tough, but this can be alleviated with some funding.

 

[midori]

Children in broken families have it very tough, but this can be alleviated with some funding.

There’s a difference between people who are in poverty through individual misfortune, versus generational poverty. Someone who sinks into poverty from former affluence might possibly, with God’s grace and hard work and good fortune, resume their previous position by the reacquisition of those resources (health, for example) they lost.

But generational poverty isn’t something that can be solved by throwing money at it. People are really, truly trapped— because it goes beyond environment, and is rooted in values, priorities, worldview, and the ability to function in a “socially acceptable” manner with the group of people you’re with.

DH and I come from a good middle-class upbringing. My grandparents were officers in the military. My dad is a rocket scientist. I was a librarian, and my husband is an attorney. His father was an engineer. His grandparents-- I’m not sure what their career was, but they didn’t have indoor plumbing. So we’ve got that generational upward-mobility established. We can function nicely with other middle-class people, but I know we’d break all sorts of unwritten rules if we tried running with Teresa Heinz’s circle of friends. Or Barron Hilton. Or the Kennedys, or the Bushes, or the Clintons, or the Carters…

The same thing is true with people in generational poverty. They’re just as foreign in their values, priorities, and decision-making as the most famous American dynasties are to me. For example— I had a pair of sisters who were making ends meet. They go off and spend $200 on an above-ground pool. Then they spend another $100 to fill it a few times over the course of a week… because they can’t be bothered to buy chlorine tabs to keep the water clean for more than 24 hours. They’re late with their $400 rent because they get hit by a big water bill. And the pool ends up with holes in the bottom by the end of the season, and I have to haul it off to the trash when they leave. I asked them why they didn’t just go to the municipal pool, where admission is $1 for kids and $2 for adults. They looked at me like I was crazy. Because people in “their” circle prioritized entertainment, and being able to host people and give them a good time, and being the center of activity. Money is something that disappears quickly, so spend it on something that will make you popular with your friends. But people in “my” circle prioritize fulfilling your obligations, working in your budget, etc., and if my friends want to go have a good time, why in the world would they expect me to provide it for them?

Another example is with food. People in poverty will ask, “Did you eat enough?” People in the middle-class don’t have to worry about quantity, so the question is usually, “Did it taste good?” And people in the upper-class know that both quantity and palatability are a given— so their questions are all about appearance and attractiveness, which is why you get all this talk about “plating” and “presentation” on chef shows.

If some great disaster wiped out everyone’s bank accounts tomorrow, so that everyone was on equal footing— you wouldn’t need five or ten years to see how people would be just as inequal as they are now. People trapped by generational poverty aren’t merely kept there by a superficial “lack of money”-- it has its roots in inner things, like values, priorities, life choices, habits, living by unwritten rules, and so on. They (speaking in generalities) have been brought up to handle resources differently, so until they are taught to handle resources like “we” do, it’s unlikely they will. Just like someone who was raised without a bedtime is unlikely to suddenly decide to keep a strict nighttime schedule and be in bed by 9 every night. Or like someone who was raised with paper plates and a 40-gallon trash can in the kitchen is unlikely to mop the floor and wash all the dishes after every meal. Some people have the insight and the fortitude to forcibly change themselves… but it’s a very, very difficult thing to reprogram yourself from how you’ve been raised.

 

[Melissa]

There’s a difference between people who are in poverty through individual misfortune, versus generational poverty. Someone who sinks into poverty from former affluence might possibly, with God’s grace and hard work and good fortune, resume their previous position by the reacquisition of those resources (health, for example) they lost.

But generational poverty isn’t something that can be solved by throwing money at it. People are really, truly trapped— because it goes beyond environment, and is rooted in values, priorities, worldview, and the ability to function in a “socially acceptable” manner with the group of people you’re with.

DH and I come from a good middle-class upbringing. My grandparents were officers in the military. My dad is a rocket scientist. I was a librarian, and my husband is an attorney. His father was an engineer. His grandparents-- I’m not sure what their career was, but they didn’t have indoor plumbing. So we’ve got that generational upward-mobility established. We can function nicely with other middle-class people, but I know we’d break all sorts of unwritten rules if we tried running with Teresa Heinz’s circle of friends. Or Barron Hilton. Or the Kennedys, or the Bushes, or the Clintons, or the Carters…

The same thing is true with people in generational poverty. They’re just as foreign in their values, priorities, and decision-making as the most famous American dynasties are to me. For example— I had a pair of sisters who were making ends meet. They go off and spend $200 on an above-ground pool. Then they spend another $100 to fill it a few times over the course of a week… because they can’t be bothered to buy chlorine tabs to keep the water clean for more than 24 hours. They’re late with their $400 rent because they get hit by a big water bill. And the pool ends up with holes in the bottom by the end of the season, and I have to haul it off to the trash when they leave. I asked them why they didn’t just go to the municipal pool, where admission is $1 for kids and $2 for adults. They looked at me like I was crazy. Because people in “their” circle prioritized entertainment, and being able to host people and give them a good time, and being the center of activity. Money is something that disappears quickly, so spend it on something that will make you popular with your friends. But people in “my” circle prioritize fulfilling your obligations, working in your budget, etc., and if my friends want to go have a good time, why in the world would they expect me to provide it for them?

Another example is with food. People in poverty will ask, “Did you eat enough?” People in the middle-class don’t have to worry about quantity, so the question is usually, “Did it taste good?” And people in the upper-class know that both quantity and palatability are a given— so their questions are all about appearance and attractiveness, which is why you get all this talk about “plating” and “presentation” on chef shows.

If some great disaster wiped out everyone’s bank accounts tomorrow, so that everyone was on equal footing— you wouldn’t need five or ten years to see how people would be just as inequal as they are now. People trapped by generational poverty aren’t merely kept there by a superficial “lack of money”-- it has its roots in inner things, like values, priorities, life choices, habits, living by unwritten rules, and so on. They (speaking in generalities) have been brought up to handle resources differently, so until they are taught to handle resources like “we” do, it’s unlikely they will. Just like someone who was raised without a bedtime is unlikely to suddenly decide to keep a strict nighttime schedule and be in bed by 9 every night. Or like someone who was raised with paper plates and a 40-gallon trash can in the kitchen is unlikely to mop the floor and wash all the dishes after every meal. Some people have the insight and the fortitude to forcibly change themselves… but it’s a very, very difficult thing to reprogram yourself from how you’ve been raised.

:clapping: ← making do for lack of “like” button

Very well stated. Priorities like education, delaying immediate gratification for better things and the like are things that are missing in generational poverty–and the cure is not going to be found by merely throwing money at the problem.

 

[Robert_Sock]

There’s a difference between people who are in poverty through individual misfortune, versus generational poverty. Someone who sinks into poverty from former affluence might possibly, with God’s grace and hard work and good fortune, resume their previous position by the reacquisition of those resources (health, for example) they lost.

But generational poverty isn’t something that can be solved by throwing money at it. People are really, truly trapped— because it goes beyond environment, and is rooted in values, priorities, worldview, and the ability to function in a “socially acceptable” manner with the group of people you’re with.

DH and I come from a good middle-class upbringing. My grandparents were officers in the military. My dad is a rocket scientist. I was a librarian, and my husband is an attorney. His father was an engineer. His grandparents-- I’m not sure what their career was, but they didn’t have indoor plumbing. So we’ve got that generational upward-mobility established. We can function nicely with other middle-class people, but I know we’d break all sorts of unwritten rules if we tried running with Teresa Heinz’s circle of friends. Or Barron Hilton. Or the Kennedys, or the Bushes, or the Clintons, or the Carters…

The same thing is true with people in generational poverty. They’re just as foreign in their values, priorities, and decision-making as the most famous American dynasties are to me. For example— I had a pair of sisters who were making ends meet. They go off and spend $200 on an above-ground pool. Then they spend another $100 to fill it a few times over the course of a week… because they can’t be bothered to buy chlorine tabs to keep the water clean for more than 24 hours. They’re late with their $400 rent because they get hit by a big water bill. And the pool ends up with holes in the bottom by the end of the season, and I have to haul it off to the trash when they leave. I asked them why they didn’t just go to the municipal pool, where admission is $1 for kids and $2 for adults. They looked at me like I was crazy. Because people in “their” circle prioritized entertainment, and being able to host people and give them a good time, and being the center of activity. Money is something that disappears quickly, so spend it on something that will make you popular with your friends. But people in “my” circle prioritize fulfilling your obligations, working in your budget, etc., and if my friends want to go have a good time, why in the world would they expect me to provide it for them?

Another example is with food. People in poverty will ask, “Did you eat enough?” People in the middle-class don’t have to worry about quantity, so the question is usually, “Did it taste good?” And people in the upper-class know that both quantity and palatability are a given— so their questions are all about appearance and attractiveness, which is why you get all this talk about “plating” and “presentation” on chef shows.

If some great disaster wiped out everyone’s bank accounts tomorrow, so that everyone was on equal footing— you wouldn’t need five or ten years to see how people would be just as inequal as they are now. People trapped by generational poverty aren’t merely kept there by a superficial “lack of money”-- it has its roots in inner things, like values, priorities, life choices, habits, living by unwritten rules, and so on. They (speaking in generalities) have been brought up to handle resources differently, so until they are taught to handle resources like “we” do, it’s unlikely they will. Just like someone who was raised without a bedtime is unlikely to suddenly decide to keep a strict nighttime schedule and be in bed by 9 every night. Or like someone who was raised with paper plates and a 40-gallon trash can in the kitchen is unlikely to mop the floor and wash all the dishes after every meal. Some people have the insight and the fortitude to forcibly change themselves… but it’s a very, very difficult thing to reprogram yourself from how you’ve been raised.

What you’re describing here is what psychologists have termed “the process of socialization.” Many studies have been conducted to demonstrate its effects. For example, sheriff deputies and medical professions go through an unseen socialization process that alters their values, attitudes, and beliefs. What you and others on this thread are missing is that the values, attitudes, and beliefs of those living in poverty are flexible and can be easily changed. This is where our efforts should be directed!

 

[midori]

What you and others on this thread are missing is that the values, attitudes, and beliefs of those living in poverty are flexible and can be easily changed. This is where our efforts should be directed!

Can you give specific examples that you’ve seen yourself in real-life? Because in my experience, people living in poverty don’t want to change, and it takes dramatic outside forces to give them the impetus to do so. That’s not to say they’re necessarily happy or content with what they have---- but they indulge in dead-end or self-destructive behaviors, even knowing that such things are harmful to their situations, their relationships, and their futures. Because for so many people in generational poverty, their perspective is all about the immediate present, rather than one, five, or ten years down the line.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Can you give specific examples that you’ve seen yourself in real-life? Because in my experience, people living in poverty don’t want to change, and it takes dramatic outside forces to give them the impetus to do so. That’s not to say they’re necessarily happy or content with what they have---- but they indulge in dead-end or self-destructive behaviors, even knowing that such things are harmful to their situations, their relationships, and their futures. Because for so many people in generational poverty, their perspective is all about the immediate present, rather than one, five, or ten years down the line.

I’m a retired research psychologist and I’ve been away from reading current studies on attitude formation and change, but I did get to work with several psychologists from the Los Angeles Sheriffs Department and the consensus was that there exists an amazing amount of socialization change that takes place during the training period of sheriff deputies. To me, this proves that values, attitudes, and beliefs in humans are flexible.

As for applying a positive change of values, attitudes, and beliefs in those living in poverty, it does take some motivation, and speaking from personal experience, this can easily happen through religious experiences. Amazing Grace is a popular Christian hymn that many can attest to. How to get those living in poverty to have these types of religious experiences remains a mystery to me, but I still believe that the values, attitudes, and beliefs of those living in poverty can be changed relatively easily if and when social psychologists are asked to come up with a plan of attack. Surely the mass media can play a central role, as can the work environment if and when society decides to create special jobs geared to those living in poverty.