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McatholicN
Guest
I’ve heard that no one may be excused from committing natural law.
Number one, is this true?
Number two, what are the natural laws?
Number one, is this true?
Number two, what are the natural laws?
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1ke
Guest
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John21652
Guest
Your first sentence is a bit confusing. You don’t “commit” Natual Law, you follow it. However, it is the case that many made made laws, the positive law, can conflict with Natural Law and then one can be ‘guilty’ of breaking the Natural Law. The U.S Constitution and Declaration of Independence are Natural Law documents. The Constiutions of England and Australia are Natural Law documents. The Constitution of Australia is the only one which actually mentions ‘God’. A lot of the man made laws, the ‘positive’ law, conflict with the Natual Law doctrines which underpin those constitutional documents. The Right to Life is one obvious one. The result is discord. In fact, there is a school of thought that nations which stray from Natural Law eventually fail.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Natural Law really consists of two aspect one being the Laws of Nature which cannot be broken, and the second part Natural [Moral] Law which is recognized by all substantial legal circles. Natural [Moral] Law is a base concept that god endowed us with an inherent sense of right verse wrong, and a knowledge of his existence.
*1954 Man participates in the wisdom and goodness of the Creator who gives him mastery over his acts and the ability to govern himself with a view to the true and the good. The natural law expresses the original moral sense which enables man to discern by reason the good and the evil, the truth and the lie:
"The natural law is written and engraved in the soul of each and every man, because it is human reason ordaining him to do good and forbidding him to sin . . . But this command of human reason would not have the force of law if it were not the voice and interpreter of a higher reason to which our spirit and our freedom must be submitted."5
5 Leo XIII, Libertas praestantissimum, 597.*
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John21652
Guest
Can the “Laws of Nature” be broken?
If we are talking about how nature itself operates, then we perhaps can state that nature is what it is and cannot be anything else. Things in nature have their own properties, or ‘essences’ as the ancients would say, and must operate according to those natures. Man, however, seems to be something different. We can discern what we think is ‘human nature’ and indeed that is a part of discerning what is right for man and for formulating by what morality man should live. However, it would seem that man has the ability to act contrary to his nature. He can murder, steal and lie, yet Natural Law reasoning should tell each and everyone of us that those things are not to be done. Why is it that man fails to discern what should be obvious if it is indeed ‘engraved in the soul’?
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smithm29
Guest
I assume you mean that no one may be excused from following the natural law. That’s correct- some actions are intrinsically disordered (like homosexual sex or sex with artificial birth control) and cry out against the laws of nature. However, it’s one thing to say that no person is excused from following the natural law. It’s quite another thing to say that all persons who commit disordered or intrinsically evil acts are equally culpable.
The second question requires far more than you can be given on an internet forum. Look in this thread for book suggestions. Basically you can get back to first principles (that life is sacred, that the purpose of sex is procreation, that there is a deity) pretty much universally, but extrapolating beyond those principles is difficult.
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
Caveat
The problem here is a pre-existing communication from the Church. The Church writes Natural Law when referring to moral issue, while other would like to reclassify that as Natural Moral Law. As we cannot change the Church writing we have to deal with it as is. For example
Gravity is Natural Law or Law of Nature?
Thou shall not kill is that Natural Law or Natural Moral Law?
What really happens is we call gravity as an axiom (defined as truth). We further define Thou shall not kill as an axiom however one can kill and violate the second axiom, but one cannot violate the first axiom. Thus we have mixed violable and inviolable items into the same communication standard, and thus the problem in answering the question.
Now for the second question:
The Church teaches that disordered thought and prudential judgment but can lead man to violate Natural [Moral] Law. So a man can kill because he believes another man is evil (disordered thought) or he believes he is in imminent danger when he was not (prudential judgment)
Hope that explains it.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
I see the word “intrinsically” thrown around so much that I begin to wonder if there is anything that is disordered but not intrinsically disordered. Could you cite some examples of “non-intrinsically” disordered actions?
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smithm29
Guest
Sure. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with driving on the left-hand side of the road. By itself, a law barring driving on the left has nothing to do with the natural law. However, life is valued under the natural law, and this law is ordered to the protection of human life. Therefore, driving on the right-hand side of the road in the US is ordered to the protection of life, but not intrinsically so. It follows that driving on the left-hand side of the road would be disordered, but not intrinsically disordered.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
OK, but the law about driving on the right is not a Church law. Are there any actions against Church law that are not intrinsically disordered?
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Ashton_Gaskill
Guest
Because Satan is a very crafty individual and God gave us the ability to choose.
God gave us free will because love isn’t real if it isn’t freely given, and we can’t freely give something without being able to choose.
Since we can choose, we can choose to not go towards God. The more we turn away from Him, the farther away we get from those things “engraved in the soul”.
Satan tries to get us farther away from those things, one step at a time. “Oh, birthcontrol is good, it frees the woman from having to worry about getting pregnant.” leads to “Well why does the woman have to be locked up sexually? Why can’t she just sleep with whomever?” leads to “My husband is treating me right, so I’m going to leave him for something better.” leads to “My birthcontrol failed when I was sleeping with this man while grieving the loss of my marriage. I don’t want a child, so abortion is the only option.”
Satan doesn’t just pull us away in one motion, he works in small pieces, slowly distorting our view of reality and right from wrong. One step at a time, what used to be socially shunned becomes the norm.
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smithm29
Guest
Ordination of married men in the Roman rite is against canon law but not against the natural law. Marriage without witnesses is against canon law but not against the natural law. Even polygamy is not against the natural law, but it is opposed to the sacramental nature of marriage.
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fhansen
Guest
Isn’t the concept of natural law sort of telling us that the moral law against killing *should *be as inviolable as the law of gravity but, due to the original sin made possible by free will, the door was opened for the breaking of such laws?
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Texas_Roofer
Guest
I wouldn’t go that far, i would say “the concept of natural law tells us that the nature of man is against killing”
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smithm29
Guest
I would even rephrase that. Natural law would tell us that since many of our functions are ordered to protecting our lives (eating, drinking, fight or flight, and so on), that life is valued. Because life is a natural value (a universal first principle), it is a violation of that principle to take someone else’s life.
That’s about as far as first principles can take you. The Church has extrapolated from that first principle to say “it is a violation of the natural law to take someone’s life without just cause”.
That’s about as far as first principles can take you. The Church has extrapolated from that first principle to say “it is a violation of the natural law to take someone’s life without just cause”.
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John21652
Guest
It is not just the Church that extrapolates, although the term ‘discernes’ might be a better term. Natural Law is not restricted in use to the Catholic Church. Islam is a Natural Law religion, as is Judaism. And, there are many secular theorists and philosophers who adhere to Natural law thinking and jurisprudence.
The Natural Law principle is that everyone has the right to life. The right to life also leads to the right of defending one’s life if need be and so, killing is not always wrong. Wrongful killing is murder, which is the deprivation of another’s right to life.
The right to property is another Natural Law right.
So too is the right of free speech.
And the right of free association.
And the right to privacy.
TexasRoofer pointed out that
The crucial aspect of this edict is that mean’s reason is required to discern what is to be given the force of law. As smithm29 points out in his post, it can be a difficult process. A striking feature of Natural Law morality is the notion of responsibilities. Reason allows us to discern the workings of the Natural world and its Natural Laws. Reason then discerns man’s place in the Natural World and the Natural Moral Law is a construct which equips man to live in the Natural world according to his basic nature as a sociable individual who has certain basic rights, some of which are listed above. His basic nature has in it those laws which are “written” on his heart, or soul. Those “laws” are discerned from what is universal and normative to the nature of man. It has been said that God gave man the Ten Commandments because he had forgotten what was written on his heart. The Ten Commandments actually express what man universally desires, with the added notation that you’d better honour the one true God! The Roman jurist and orator Cicero said “There is in fact a true law - namely, right reason - which is in accordance with nature, applies to all men, and is unchangeable and eternal.” Because it is unchangeable and eternal, God can even be given a holiday and the natural Law will still hold true. It is independent of God’s will. Some argue it is actually a part of God’s will and that makes it even more immutable.
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