What are you protesting?

[Benu2007]

That is very well put. If you cannot get up the courage to confess your sins to another man, how do you expect you will do in front of God?

I realise that it is good to confess sins to another person. But why does it have to be to another believer. Why not just another Christian? Confessing is good because it gets you to examine your life. But I don’t see why you need to go to a priest.

 

[Benu2007]

That’s romantic, but not really accurate.

fear http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png –noun
1.a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; the feeling or condition of being afraid.
2.a specific instance of or propensity for such a feeling: an abnormal fear of heights.
3.concern or anxiety; solicitude: a fear for someone’s safety.
4.reverential awe, esp. toward God.

I think he means fear of the 1st kind listed in this particular instance. 1 John 16:25-28. Illustrates this point.

 

[Benu2007]

Benu, it is without question that Christ’s sacrifice atoned for our sins for all time. We agree on that. Where we disagree is in the notions of how this grace is given to us, and on the idea of whether or not we can fall back into sin and perhaps lose our salvation.
QUOTE]

But you just said it, that it is Christ’s by sacrifice that grace is given to us. Remember it’s a gift so there’s nothing we can do to earn it. Also if it’s a grace then how is purgatory showing grace.

 

[Benu2007]

I appreciate the suggestion to try different translations of the Bible. I agree that limiting oneself to one translation can be problematic. I actually do use Bible Gateway myself; it’s a great resource. My home Bibles that I use the most are the NIV and the NAB (which is the Bible used in the American Catholic liturgy.) We’ve also got a couple of Protestant Bibles lying around that I look at less often.

If I may make a similar suggestion to you, it would be to study closely the writings of the early Christians, such as the Didache, the Shepherd of Hermas, 1 Clement, Irenaus, Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, etc.

Wow you guys use the NIV? That’s a good one too. Do they make Catholic versions of it too? I thought it was just a protestant version. I still like NLT better though. It put things so clearly and when comparing it to other translations it appeared quite accurate. Bible Gateway is a great resource.

I guess I could look at what those guys said. Can’t promise I will spend hours daily reading them. But I could have a look. But I will examine everything they say with the bible.

Is there any internet places where I can find good clear translations of what they say?

 

[Benu2007]

Benu, it is without question that Christ’s sacrifice atoned for our sins for all time. We agree on that. Where we disagree is in the notions of how this grace is given to us, and on the idea of whether or not we can fall back into sin and perhaps lose our salvation.

.

I agree fully that you can lose your salvation. If you turn from your faith and start living for your own selfish desires again then you’ve turned from God and rejected Him.

Although John puts it this way. Somewhere in 1 John he says that those people never really belonged to Christ anyway. This is because God called us long before the world began. That is because He knew we would call out to Him so He accepted us then. Not that He just decided who would make it and who wouldn’t.

So technically speaking we can’t really turn away if he never called us in the firsts place. In saying that though. We don’t know who He called because so to us we see them as turning away.

These last to points are only there out of sake of making an interesting, if not confusing, technical point. Obviously, if I see a person turning to there sin again then I should gently and humbly lead that person back. Because if they don’t than they will not see the Kingdom of God.

 

[ibkc]

Wow you guys use the NIV? That’s a good one too. Do they make Catholic versions of it too? I thought it was just a protestant version.

Yes, we use the NIV. We’re not like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who only use one “special” Bible.

I guess I could look at what those guys said. Can’t promise I will spend hours daily reading them. But I could have a look. But I will examine everything they say with the bible.

Is there any internet places where I can find good clear translations of what they say?

Yes, absolutely, there is no place better than earlychristianwritings.com/churchfathers.html. They provide links to translations of each writings (usually multiple translations) plus they give historical and other background information on each piece.

Somewhere in 1 John he says that those people never really belonged to Christ anyway. This is because God called us long before the world began. That is because He knew we would call out to Him so He accepted us then. Not that He just decided who would make it and who wouldn’t.

So technically speaking we can’t really turn away if he never called us in the firsts place. In saying that though. We don’t know who He called because so to us we see them as turning away.

No matter how many times this theory (it’s Calvinism, isn’t it?) is explained to me, I cannot see it as anything other than a negation of free will. If in 1 John it says some people never belonged to Christ anyway, I read this as their conversions not being complete in their hearts, not as they were born doomed to Hell to begin with. I think it refers to people who make the choice here, in this life, to not take Christ seriously even though they have superficially taken on the title of Christian. I see nothing in the Bible or elsewhere to indicate otherwise.

These last to points are only there out of sake of making an interesting, if not confusing, technical point. Obviously, if I see a person turning to there sin again then I should gently and humbly lead that person back. Because if they don’t than they will not see the Kingdom of God.

But in your POV a Christian who turns to sin was born already turned from God and nothing can save them, so why bother?

Now from the Catholic POV, leading the person back makes total sense, because it is actually expected that we will ALL stumble in this life, so a system is set up where we can reconcile with God and start afresh.

 

[Benu2007]

No matter how many times this theory (it’s Calvinism, isn’t it?) is explained to me, I cannot see it as anything other than a negation of free will. If in 1 John it says some people never belonged to Christ anyway, I read this as their conversions not being complete in their hearts, not as they were born doomed to Hell to begin with. I think it refers to people who make the choice here, in this life, to not take Christ seriously even though they have superficially taken on the title of Christian. I see nothing in the Bible or elsewhere to indicate otherwise.

But in your POV a Christian who turns to sin was born already turned from God and nothing can save them, so why bother?

Now from the Catholic POV, leading the person back makes total sense, because it is actually expected that we will ALL stumble in this life, so a system is set up where we can reconcile with God and start afresh.

Sorry I just said that to mention something spoken in the Bible. I do not believe in predestination - the idea that God said this person will go to Heaven and this person will not. However there are verses in the Bible which talk about Jesus saving those the Father has given Him. People will use these kinds of verses to show predestination.
1 John 6:39
And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day.

and

John 6:45
For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up.

These verse show that God gave people for Christ to save.

Here is the verse I was talking about the other day.

1 John 2:19
These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.

But does this mean that God Himself predestines us to either Heaven or Hell?

The answer is a big NO.
Romans 8:29-30
For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

This verse clearly shows us that God knew who would call on Him ao He chose them in advance. It wasn’t that He decided who His people would be (which is the predestination theory), it was that He already knew who they would be so He called them all to Himself and gave them to Christ to save.

Christians may turn away from their faith. If that happens then we need to bring them back to God. Otherwise they would go to Hell, It’s just God knew before hand who would belong to Him in the end. Notice how it is God who knows this and not us. God foreknew them so He called them. But who knows, He may only have called a person because we led them to Him. God is not limited by time so He can do this in advance.

My point is that I do not believe in predestination. Hear me on that, so please don’t argue that I do. Everyone has their own free will and it is God’s desire that everyone comes to Him. It’s just there are verses in the bible, like the ones I gave you that can be twisted to show predestination. I just wanted to show you biblically that God has not predestined us meaning that we are subject to fate. What I am trying to show is that we create our own fate, it’s just that God knew it beforehand.