What are your objections to the various scriptures of the Christian Traditions?

[firstmode]

Now, we have all heard and seen the dates in the early church where various councils approved cannon lists, what books they include, what they did not include, what is in the Septuagint and what is not. I understand many of us have made up our minds or are still making up our minds on the authority of the various cannon of scriptures (Not saying there is more than 1 cannon, just saying many may think so, etc.)

So this thread is not really about the cannon as apposed to what do you think about the books you have objections to? I have included lists below, if you would like to reply to the post and speak about specific books, I think it will turn into a very constructive thread!

So, please share your opinion, any and all from all the Christian Faith Traditions, or if you choose, those outside those traditions.

We know all Christian Traditions agree on the books used in the Protestant Traditions and also used in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh).

OLD TESTAMENT:

Genesis
Exodus
Leviticus
Numbers
Deuteronomy
Joshua
Judges
Ruth
1 Samuel (1 Kingdoms)
2 Samuel (2 Kingdoms)
1 Kings (3 Kingdoms)
2 Kings (4 Kingdoms)
1 Chronicles
2 Chronicles
Ezra (Also seen as 2 Esdras including Nehemiah in Orthdox cannon)
Nehemiah (Also seen as 2 Esdras including Ezra in Orthdox cannon)
Esther
Job
Psalm
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Solomon
Isaiah
Jeremiah
Lamentations
Ezekiel
Daniel
Hosea
Joel
Amos
Obadiah
Jonah
Micah
Nahum
Habakkuk
Zephaniah
Haggai
Zechariah
Malachi

NEW TESTAMENT:

Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
Hebrews
James
1 Peter
2 Peter
1 John
2 John
3 John
Jude
Revelation (The Apocalypse of John)

• (Hebrews, James, Jude, Revelations) These four works were questioned or “spoken against” by Martin Luther, and he changed the order of his New Testament to reflect this, but he did not leave them out, nor has any Lutheran body since. Traditional German Luther Bibles are still printed with the New Testament in this changed “Lutheran” order.

Books seen as Inspired Scripture by the Catholic, Orthodox Churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Holy Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East), and used by the Anglican Church, but not seen as inspired and doctrine cannot be formed from them.

1 Macabees
2 Macabees
Tobias (Tobit)
Judith
Wisdom (Wisdom of Solomon)
Ecclesiaticus (Wisdom of Jesus son of Sirach, Wisdom of Ben Sira)

Baruch and The Epistle of Jeremiah

• In Catholic Bibles, Baruch includes a sixth chapter called the Letter of Jeremiah. Baruch is not in the Protestant Bible or the Tanakh.
• Eastern Orthodox Bibles have the books of Baruch and the Letter of Jeremiah separate.

Additions to Esther

• The Catholic and Orthodox Book of Esther includes 103 verses not in the Protestant Book of Esther.

Additions to Daniel (Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon)

• In Catholic and Orthodox Bibles, Daniel includes three sections not included in Protestant Bibles. The Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children are included between Daniel 3:23-24. Susanna is included as Daniel 13. Bel and the Dragon is included as Daniel 14. These are not in the Protestant Old Testament.

Books seen as Inspired Scripture by the majority of Orthodox Churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Holy Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East), and used by the Anglican Church, but not seen as inspired and doctrine cannot be formed from them.

Psalm 151

• Eastern Orthodox churches include Psalm 151, not present in all canons.

1 Esdras (Douay-Rheims Titled 3 Esdras as Ezra and Nehemiah are seen as 1 and 2 Esdras)

2 Esdras or Slavonic 2 Esdras (Douay-Rheims Titled 4 Esdras as Ezra and Nehemiah are seen as 1 and 2 Esdras)

Prayer of Manasseh (Included in the Book of Odes)
3 Maccabees
4 Maccabees
The Book of Odes

 

[firstmode]

Book seen as inspired by the Etheopian Orthodox Church:

Henok (I Enoch)
Kufale (Jubilees)
1 Meqabyan
2 Meqabyan
3 Meqabyan

• The Three Meqabyan books ARE NOT 1, 2, and 3, Maccabees

Pseudo-Josephus (the book of Yosëf Wäldä Koryon, called Zëna Ayhud or Mäshäfä Serew, a history of the Jews in 8 parts, based on the writings of Josephus)

Sinodos (A book of church order. The part of it attributed to the apostles is traditionally divided into 4 sections, Ser`atä Seyon (30 canons), Te’ezaz (71 canons), Gessew (56 canons) and Abtelis (81 canons). Sinodos MSS contain more material than this, and their content and order are rather variable.)

Clement (Qälëmentos) (A book in seven parts, communicated by Peter to Clement.[13] It is not the Roman or Corinthian correspondence, nor one of the parts of Sinodos, (namely Te’ezaz, Gessew or Abtelis, which are sometimes called 1, 2 and 3 Clement), nor part of the Syriac Octateuch of Clement.)

The Book of the Covenant (Mäshafä Kidan) (Counted as 2 parts, firstly sections 1-60, mostly about Church order, and secondly section 61, a discourse of our Lord to his disciples in Galilee after his resurrection)

The Ethiopian Didascalia (Didesqelya) (A book of Church order in 43 chapters, distinct from the Didascalia Apostolorum, but similar to books I-VII of the so-called Apostolic Constitutions.)

Books Considered Cannon and Inspired by Many in the very early Church (before 300 A.D):

The Epistle of Barnabas
Didache
The Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians
The Apocalypse of Peter (The Revelation of Peter)
The Shepard (The Shepard of Hermas)

 

[firstmode]

Let me be the first to comment on The Book of Wisdom or The Wisdom of Solomon.

I really enjoy this book and have found these parts of it fascinating:

Personification of Wisdom

There are found in the Book of Wisdom and other books of the wisdom literature to Wisdom as a personification with divine attributes. These have long been taken by Christian exegetes as references to Christ, who is called the wisdom of God by Paul the Apostle.

In chapter seven, Wisdom is said to be “the fashioner of all things” (v. 22). Because she fashions all things, is “an associate in his [God’s] works” (8:4), and is a “pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty” (7:25), Wisdom is eternal and one in being with the Father. Because Wisdom is God’s “creative agent”, she must be intimately identified with God himself.[5] For Christians, the most definite indication that personified Wisdom refers to the Messiah is the paraphrasing of Wis 7:26 in Heb 1:3a.[6] Wis 7:26 says that “she is a reflection of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.” The author of Hebrews says of Christ: “He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power.”

Furthermore, Wisdom speaks of personified Wisdom in a Trinitarian way at 9:17: “Who has learned your counsel, unless you have given wisdom and sent your holy spirit from on high?”. The next verse says that salvation is an act of Wisdom. In Christianity salvation is an activity reserved for God, but it is here given to Wisdom, thus identifying them with one another.[7]

Wisdom 2

The second chapter of the Book of Wisdom (Wisdom 2) builds up to a prophecy of Christ’s passion. First the ungodly men are described (Wis 1:16-2:9), followed by their plotting against the righteous man (2:10-20). The passage describes in detail the treatment of Jesus by the Jewish authorities. The first indication for Christians that it is a prophecy of the Messiah is in verse 11. Where the RSV reads weak, the Greek has achrestos, a play on the title Christos. Verse 12 is a quote of the LXX version of Is 3:10; Is 3:10 has been taken to refer to Jesus since the first-century Epistle of Barnabas.[8] On the whole, this treatment of the suffering of the righteous man is heavily indebted to Isaiah; particularly the fourth Suffering Servant song (Is 52:13-53:12).[9] Verse 13 uses pais (child, or servant), from Is 52:13. Verse 15 says his very sight is a burden, referencing Is 53:2. In verse 16 he calls God his father, which is thought to be based on a poor understanding of pais as in Is 52:13. Verse 18 is comparable to Is 42:1. Verse 19 makes reference to Is 53:7. A final reference to the Messiah is the righteous man’s “shameful death” in verse 20. This death has been identified with Jesus’ death on a cross, a cursed death hanging on a tree.

The Gospel of Matthew contains allusions to the Wisdom of Solomon. Parallels between Wisdom and Matthew include the theme of testing, and the mocking of a servant of God’s claim to be protected by God. Matthew’s gospel teaches that Jesus is the suffering servant of God. Wis 2:17-18 (Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life; for if the righteous man is God’s son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.) lent itself to Mt 27:43 (He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he desires him; for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’”).[10]

 

[Deconi]

Matey, you’re not doing your Bible study assignments on us are you? lol

If you’re gonna be selective about books of Scriptures…which we don’t do as a rule…read Job, Hosea, Proverbs, Kings, Jeremiah and company.

Love Wisdom by the way!

 

[firstmode]

I am definitely not doing homework and I am definitely not trying to be selective with scripture.

I just thought this would be an interesting topic, especially if some Orthodox, Lutherans, and Anglicans stop in!

 

[Publisher]

I have no issue concerning the “expanded canon” used by Catholics, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox or Coptics. I use the Oxford Study Bible Expanded Edition which includes most of the Duetrocanical books listed.

I also have no issue with employing the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Truth, Gospel of Peter and a few other books not accepted as “canon”…but which were used as scripture in earlier Christian traditions…but when the “proto-orthodox-catholic” came into prominence they were deemed…“heretical”…Truth can be found in these writing as well.

I read scripture each morning with my coffee before I get ready for work…I usally spend 45mins to an hour in the mornings…and usually an hour in the evening after dinner reading and studying scripture, church history, scriptural development or the writings of Friends.

 

[Nicea325]

I have no issue concerning the “expanded canon” used by Catholics, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox or Coptics. I use the Oxford Study Bible Expanded Edition which includes most of the Duetrocanical books listed.

I also have no issue with employing the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Truth, Gospel of Peter and a few other books not accepted as “canon”…but which were used as scripture in earlier Christian traditions…but when the “proto-orthodox-catholic” came into prominence they were deemed…“heretical”…Truth can be found in these writing as well.

I read scripture each morning with my coffee before I get ready for work…I usally spend 45mins to an hour in the mornings…and usually an hour in the evening after dinner reading and studying scripture, church history, scriptural development or the writings of Friends.

Quaker I more or less have your approach.Frankly, I am not going to make a big fuss over what canon one chooses to follow.If one wants to read the shorter OT canon,so be it! If one wants to read the longer canons,so be it!

This is an issue that has seems to have no end in sight…

 

[Publisher]

Quaker I more or less have your approach.Frankly, I am not going to make a big fuss over what canon one chooses to follow.If one wants to read the shorter OT canon,so be it! If one wants to read the longer canons,so be it!

This is an issue that has seems to have no end in sight…

Agreed. It has been my experience when some Catholics tell Protestants that their Bible is incomplete because they don’t have “all the books”…I often wonder if any of these Catholics can state exactly what is in these “missing books” that is not stated elsewhere in one form or another in the “shorter canon”. From what I’ve read except for an obscure reference regarding praying for the dead in the Maccabees…and the personification of Wisdom in Sirach…there’s nothing of any deep theological content that cannot be found in the “shorter” canon.

 

[wmscott]

Now, we have all heard and seen the dates in the early church where various councils approved cannon lists, what books they include, what they did not include, what is in the Septuagint and what is not. I understand many of us have made up our minds or are still making up our minds on the authority of the various cannon of scriptures (Not saying there is more than 1 cannon, just saying many may think so, etc.)

So this thread is not really about the cannon as apposed to what do you think about the books you have objections to? I have included lists below, if you would like to reply to the post and speak about specific books, I think it will turn into a very constructive thread!

So, please share your opinion, any and all from all the Christian Faith Traditions, or if you choose, those outside those traditions.

We know all Christian Traditions agree on the books used in the Protestant Traditions and also used in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh).

Books seen as Inspired Scripture by the Catholic, Orthodox Churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Holy Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East), and used by the Anglican Church, but not seen as inspired and doctrine cannot be formed from them.

1 Macabees
2 Macabees
Tobias (Tobit)
Judith
Wisdom (Wisdom of Solomon)
Ecclesiaticus (Wisdom of Jesus son of Sirach, Wisdom of Ben Sira)

Let’s look a few Catholic doctrines, the Eucharist, the Assumption, Works, and Intercessory prayer….

**The Eucharist **

**John 6:35-59 **- Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse.

Exemplified in:

Sirach 24:20-21 “He who eats of me will hunger still, he who drinks of me will thirst for more; He who obeys me will not be put to shame, he who serves me will never fail."

Assumption

Heb. 11:5 “By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and “he was found no more because God had taken him.” Before he was taken up, he was attested to have pleased God"

2 Kings 2:1-13 – Elijah being taken up into heaven

Exemplified in:

Sirach 44:16 “[ENOCH walked with the LORD and was taken up, that succeeding generations might learn by his example.]”

Sirach 48:9 “You were taken aloft in a whirlwind, in a chariot with fiery horses” (Regarding Elijah)

Works

1 Peter 1:17 “Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning”

Exemplified in:

Sirach 16:12 “Great as his mercy is his punishment; he judges men, each according to his deeds”

Intercessory Prayer

**Rev. 8:3-4 **“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne”

Exemplified in:

Tobit 12:12-15 “I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead. When you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner in order to go and bury the dead, I was sent to put you to the test. At the same time, however, God commissioned me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord"

Peace

 

[JonNC]

=firstmode;6846508]Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
Hebrews
James
1 Peter
2 Peter
1 John
2 John
3 John
Jude
Revelation (The Apocalypse of John)

• (Hebrews, James, Jude, Revelations) These four works were questioned or “spoken against” by Martin Luther, and he changed the order of his New Testament to reflect this, but he did not leave them out, nor has any Lutheran body since. Traditional German Luther Bibles are still printed with the New Testament in this changed “Lutheran” order.

It is important to note that it was not Luther alone who had questions regarding these 4. Lutherans consider them part of the canon, Luther’s (and others) questioning notwithstanding.

Books seen as Inspired Scripture by the Catholic, Orthodox Churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Holy Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East), and used by the Anglican Church, but not seen as inspired and doctrine cannot be formed from them.

1 Macabees
2 Macabees
Tobias (Tobit)
Judith
Wisdom (Wisdom of Solomon)
Ecclesiaticus (Wisdom of Jesus son of Sirach, Wisdom of Ben Sira)

Baruch and The Epistle of Jeremiah

• In Catholic Bibles, Baruch includes a sixth chapter called the Letter of Jeremiah. Baruch is not in the Protestant Bible or the Tanakh.
• Eastern Orthodox Bibles have the books of Baruch and the Letter of Jeremiah separate.

Additions to Esther

• The Catholic and Orthodox Book of Esther includes 103 verses not in the Protestant Book of Esther.

Additions to Daniel (Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children, Susanna, Bel and the Dragon)

• In Catholic and Orthodox Bibles, Daniel includes three sections not included in Protestant Bibles. The Prayer of Azariah and Song of the Three Holy Children are included between Daniel 3:23-24. Susanna is included as Daniel 13. Bel and the Dragon is included as Daniel 14. These are not in the Protestant Old Testament.

Books seen as Inspired Scripture by the majority of Orthodox Churches (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Holy Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East), and used by the Anglican Church, but not seen as inspired and doctrine cannot be formed from them.

Psalm 151

• Eastern Orthodox churches include Psalm 151, not present in all canons.

1 Esdras (Douay-Rheims Titled 3 Esdras as Ezra and Nehemiah are seen as 1 and 2 Esdras)

2 Esdras or Slavonic 2 Esdras (Douay-Rheims Titled 4 Esdras as Ezra and Nehemiah are seen as 1 and 2 Esdras)

Prayer of Manasseh (Included in the Book of Odes)
3 Maccabees
4 Maccabees
The Book of Odes

Luther included the duetero-canon and also The Prayer of Manasses in his translation, though he questioned their canonicity, again he was not alone in this through history. He did consider them good and worthy of reading and study. Lutheran theologians, for the most part, probably hold to the same view, though the Lutheran Confessions do not define them, nor does it close the canon of scripture.

Jon