What besides NFP is there for married Catholic couples?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Yup! Makes so much more sense!..

To bite! No, it does not make any sense at all ( yes all the “beautiful Catholic versions)”… but that is just me.
 
Last edited:
Yup! Makes so much more sense!..

To bite! No, it does not make any sense at all ( yes all the “beautiful Catholic versions)”… but that is just me.
Not sure what you mean. If it helps avoid refers to pregnancy. You may also see TTC (trying to conceive).
 
Sperm going near an egg has procreation as its proximate end. Sperm going into a female body when there’s no egg doesn’t have procreation as its proximate end.
Also, evil intentions make an act immoral even if it’s object is good. So sex in an infertile period could be evil if it’s done with the intention of having non-procreative sex, even if the object was ordered towards procreation.
 
Except the church doesn’t teach that sex has to have procreation as its proximate end.
 
If all sex has to be ordered towards procreation then either:

Sex during an infertile period etc, is immoral because such sex isn’t ordered towards procreation.

Or

Sex in an infertile period etc, is ordered towards procreation even if procreation is impossible, thus sex can be ordered towards procreation even if procreation is impossible thus dream sex can be ordered towards procreation.
 
If all sex has to be ordered towards procreation then either:

Sex during an infertile period etc, is immoral because such sex isn’t ordered towards procreation.

Or

Sex in an infertile period etc, is ordered towards procreation even if procreation is impossible, thus sex can be ordered towards procreation even if procreation is impossible thus dream sex can be ordered towards procreation.
The way I phrase it that makes sense to me is the only moral way to avoid babies is not having sex.

My issue with the dream sex is not the procreative part but that it seems lustful. It doesn’t seem unitive either.
 
Ordered toward procreation.

Done in the same way it would be done if your intent was to have a child. This means that the husband completes the sexual act inside the body of his wife. Not going any more detailed to keep it PG.
 
Sex during an infertile period etc, is immoral because such sex isn’t ordered towards procreation.
But it is, because a woman’s body could still potentially release a gamete. Your “dream relations” method cannot ever result in the birth of a child, no matter when it occurs. That’s the difference, and that’s the reason your proposal is not ordered towards procreation while the currently taught methods are.
 
First, the proximate end is a human good, procreation. It is not an effect: “sperm going near an egg.” Second, as other posters have said, and as I have said in my response: IT IS NOT WHETHER THE EFFECT IS ACHIEVED that determines its ordering.

As a brief side note, if I were using New Natural Law (NNL), I am not, then you still misidentify what NNL theorists say the proximate effect of the act is. Insemination, not what happens when semen nears the egg, is what they use. This is because semen traveling into the vagina is more proximate than it reaching the egg (which may happen 3-7 days after insemination). Hence, in the world of cause and effect, insemination is a more proximate effect than fertilization. That being said, I do not agree with New Natural Law Theory, because it contradicts the Magisterium (I can elaborate if you wish).

Now, let’s get to the correct theory, the Manualist Tradition, used by St. Alphonsus. Knowingly and deliberately UNITING and performing the behavioral pattern, the exterior motions in space, determines the act’s ordering towards procreation. Because each act is treated as having a fundamental nature inherent to it, and procreation is the inherent nature to deliberately/knowingly uniting in sexual intercourse union. It alone is ordered to procreation.

It is the MEANS to the end, not whether the effect of insemination is achieved that determines its ordering. I should say, in my post above, when I said it must “culminate in vaginal deposit of semen,” I meant “onanism is detestable.” Even if vaginal deposit of semen fails to occur (say you were having a bad day), sexual intercourse itself is still ordered towards procreation. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith replies in the affirmative that:

"“whether impotence, which renders matrimony invalid, consists in the incapacity, antecedent and perpetual, whether absolute or relative, of performing conjugal copula”

It is the perpetual incapacity to perform sexual intercourse/ consummate the marriage which makes marriage invalid (or not ordered to procreation).

Finally, this is fallacious.

“Sex in an infertile period etc, is ordered towards procreation even if procreation is impossible, thus sex can be ordered towards procreation even if procreation is impossible thus dream sex can be ordered towards procreation.”

Just because SOME acts are still ordered towards procreation that fail to attain procreation, does not imply ALL acts are ordered towards procreation that fail to attain procreation. The ONLY act inherently ordered towards procreation is intercourse. It is only when this specific act fails to attain its effect, is an act that doesn’t attain procreation still “procreative.”

Key Takeaways:
(1) It is sexual intercourse union that abstractly has, “inside” of that specific act itself, combined with the intellect to be an exercise of the will, an inherent ordering towards procreation. And like with all acts, it is NEVER attainment of an end that determines its intrinsic ordering.

(2) Dream sex is not even an act, because most people do not make choices in their dreams
 
Last edited:
In other words, nfp is justified because it doesn’t work?
That’s not very good if there’re serious possibly life or death reasons for avoiding pregnancy.
 
The simple answer is that you’re not having sex even if you’re dreaming it. More specifically, you’re not having sex with your spouse. It’s all imaginary. You’re literally imagining a fake spouse to fulfill your sexual desire.

Sex during infertile periods are not sinful because you’re not working against nature (eg fake contraception) and you’re using your bodies in a way that is ordered to its purpose.

Edit: when someone says ‘ordered towards procreation’, it doesn’t mean that their sex must potentially make a baby. Infertile people can still have sex. Women with hysterectomies can still have sex.

What it means that you are not deliberately working against the nature of your bodies. In Nfp, you’re working with the nature of the woman’s body.
 
Last edited:
NFP is simply information “am I fertile today or not”. Married couples can then make informed decisions based on that information.
 
No, it’s justified because the act itself isn’t different from relations at other times except for how a woman’s body functions naturally. Dream sex is.
 
Lucid dreaming is not a reliable method. in fact there are many who doubt it is common. I was able to study this in college and through practice achieved lucid dreaming. I can still do it on a general level but it is hard and lots of people can’t do it. also, although a person can go to sleep and “command a dream” Like I can go to sleep and know I want to have a dream about my father. You cannot control the dream so therefor you don’t have full engagement of free will and conscience. I am able to know I am dreaming and wake up if I don’t like the dream, I am also able to wake up and then go back to sleep continuing on with the dream. But in general one is powerless in dreams. So purpose lucid dreaming without lust is really impossible. However I think you are using this as an example relating it back to the morality of NFP, in which case you should just state the objections.
 
40.png
1ke:
Couples are also free to do neither of these and engage in the marital embrace whenever they want to.
No they are not. According to Humanae Vitae, couples are called to responsible parenthood. Some reasons to avoid pregnancy are just, in which case it’s morally neutral if you decide to have sex or not. Some situations are grave, meaning its a grave sin to engage in sex AT ALL at that time. That means, potentially a mortal sin. It doesn’t matter if you’re married. If you are choosing to forgo prudence for the sake of avoiding masturbation, your spiritual pride may be leading you to a graver sin. Indeed, sex can be lethal. Do not allow lust to kill wives. Do not tell yourself that you’re simply a victim of God’s will because you couldn’t control yourselves to avoid the sin of murder.

Thankfully, most of us aren’t in that situation, but it is blatantly false to presume that sex can be a free for all simply because you’re married and not using contraception. But I’ve had people brag to me about denying their children basic necessities such as food because they believed they were morally superior to using NFP and so holy because they weren’t contracepting. That reeks of spiritual pride and pride is worse than lust.
No. The problem many have is over correcting the initial error. The extreme on one side says that Any form of trying to abstain avoid pregnancy is wrong. They have many names. But it is also wrong to take what the Church teaches about responsible pregnancy and read into it a command to abstain. The Church historically has not done this in times of War, famine, disease, etc and does not do it today with her members in deep poverty or oppression or danger. We leave the bringing forth of new life in the marital embrace the Will of God, cooperating with the couple. Just as it is wrong to tell people they cannot employ their own will in deciding to bring forth new life in a marriage, it is also wrong to tell them they can’t or shouldn’t.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top