What came first The Bible or the Church? Did Jesus, say to Peter you are Rock and on this Rock I will Build My Bible.

  • Thread starter Thread starter ufamtobie
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I love that you converted from atheism! No Catholic anywhere is sad when an atheist finds Jesus upon reading the Bible. It’s the point of the Bible!

If just reading it, and having a feeling it’s correct (sorry, but you’re the one talking about feelings now), is enough for you, that’s great, but some people don’t walk away with that feeling. How can a circular, “the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true” approach reach out to those other atheists?
In seminary, I took a class on Apologetics that covers all the different ways of reaching people. The most popular is the “I am going to show you all my evidence”. Maybe that works for some people, not me. You convert atheists through the power of the Holy Spirit who can work through anything.
Thank you for being an exception to my usual experience on here. I just put you back on my Christmas email card list!
 
In seminary, I took a class on Apologetics that covers all the different ways of reaching people. The most popular is the “I am going to show you all my evidence”. Maybe that works for some people, not me. You convert atheists through the power of the Holy Spirit who can work through anything.
Thank you for being an exception to my usual experience on here. I just put you back on my Christmas email card list!
😃 Even though we vigorously disagree on a lot of doctrinal issues, I’d much rather have you as a Fundamentalist than an Atheist. 👍
 
😃 Even though we vigorously disagree on a lot of doctrinal issues, I’d much rather have you as a Fundamentalist than an Atheist. 👍
Likewise! I would rather have you as a Catholic than (insert non Christian religion)
 
A sidenote of sorts.

In 200 AD we have an assortment of writings from ECF. So the Catholic says “they are Catholic”. So I point out where there were differences with Catholic doctrine now. Catholic says “well they are not infallible”.

See my point? You say they were Catholic but some of them had different views. What was official Catholic doctrine in 200 AD? Do we have councils to look at? No. Do we have some writings? Yes. See if you start with the belief that they always taught something but cannot prove it…
Why is anyone church father right and the other one is not…well if they agree with what you teach NOW!!
It is a joke. I can do the same. You see the ECF agreed with me. Now those who did not…well they were not real Christians like I am…
 
It says that it went to the Apostles and James. That is from the very first church historian. Spin away. Thats why James made the decision in Acts 15.
I don’t think it takes any spin to say that James cites Peter and the Old Testament Prophets as the basis of his conclusion in Acts 15:14-15.

I don’t think you actually believe that James was the head of the Disciples. (Surely not: it would got directly against Matthew 16:18-19, and it’s pretty clear from the first half of Acts that Peter was the head of the Twelve). It would be a strange denomination that believed in a Pope James.
If all you’re wanting to prove is that James was an influential Apostle, operating on his home turf (he was Bishop of Jerusalem) whose opinion was taken seriously, we agree.
Presides where?? In Rome. That is all. The other bishops presided in their jurisdictions if the heavily interpolated Ignatius is accurate. It still supports my contentions.
He says the Church of Rome “holds the presidency.”
And Irenaues said that authority comes from…Peter and Paul founding the church at Rome. Something he makes up. Paul wrote to Rome before he ever set foot. Irenaues is making things up and contradicts the very words of the Apostle Paul. Irenaues…the same guy who said that Christ was how old?
This guy invented history.
What you call error, I call truth. Now back to Irenaues, the guy who said Jesus was over forty and that Peter and Paul founded the church at Rome, the same guy who invents history…that is if you believe the Bible. The Bible says that Paul had never visited Rome when he was writing to them! I believe the Bible. Not some fantasy writer 150 years later.
Peter founded it, but Paul’s Letter to the Romans was an invaluable resource.
As for Jesus’ age, I think he raises a good point (although 40 is too high-end). Jesus *didn’t *die at 30.

I notice that you disagree with Iraneus here (but not when you think he agrees with you on Marian doctrines). This seems to be exactly what you accuse Catholics of doing. Selective history. But what is your basis for rejecting Iraneus on either of these points? (either meaning papal succession, and Jesus being over 30). If you don’t believe the early Fathers, who will you believe?
Minority? You have a Gallup Poll? Not in the minority in the Ante Nicene Fathers.
I mean of the Ante-Nicene Fathers. And the Encyclopedia you linked to proved that it was a minority view.
He does believe she sinned. You see, your traditions all contradict. You pick what you like and throw out the rest.
He doesn’t say that anywhere. And we don’t think that the Ante-Nicene Fathers were infallible. Just that the Apostolic Doctrines and Traditions they passed on were.
 
=Belloc Fan;4491009]I don’t think it takes any spin to say that James cites Peter and the Old Testament Prophets as the basis of his conclusion in Acts 15:14-15.
I don’t think you actually believe that James was the head of the Disciples. (Surely not: it would got directly against Matthew 16:18-19, and it’s pretty clear from the first half of Acts that Peter was the head of the Twelve). It would be a strange denomination that believed in a Pope James.
If all you’re wanting to prove is that James was an influential Apostle, operating on his home turf (he was Bishop of Jerusalem) whose opinion was taken seriously, we agree.
I do not think he was head of the 12. I am pointing out that the first church historian recounts something that could in fact be true after a point in time…but that detracts.
He says the Church of Rome “holds the presidency.”
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that wills all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the region of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, which I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father: to those who are united, both according to the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments; who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, * abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God.*
Peter founded it, but Paul’s Letter to the Romans was an invaluable resource.
Peter did not found the church at Rome.
From a Catholic site
It is an indisputably established historical fact that St. Peter laboured in Rome during the last portion of his life, and there ended his earthly course by martyrdom. As to the duration of his Apostolic activity in the Roman capital, the continuity or otherwise of his residence there, the details and success of his labours, and the chronology of his arrival and death, all these questions are uncertain, and can be solved only on hypotheses more or less well-founded. The essential fact is that Peter died at Rome: this constitutes the historical foundation of the claim of the Bishops of Rome to the Apostolic Primacy of Peter.
As for Jesus’ age, I think he raises a good point (although 40 is too high-end). Jesus *didn’t *
die at 30.
He made it up. Jesus was not forty. Have you read him? He has lots of odd theories about everything. I admite what he did against threats but seriously; he made things up.
I notice that you disagree with Iraneus here (but not when you think he agrees with you on Marian doctrines). This seems to be exactly what you accuse Catholics of doing.
Yes. No doubt! I am pointing out that certain beliefs were not universally accepted and as such I cannot even say if they had MINORITY acceptance…you see my point. No one appeals to Irenaues about the life span of Jesus but they love his false contention about Peter and Paul. They did not found the church at Rome.
Selective history. But what is your basis for rejecting Iraneus on either of these points? (either meaning papal succession, and Jesus being over 30). If you don’t believe the early Fathers, who will you believe?
I am showing the lack of verifiable information showing the early Christians were Catholic in belief and practice.
He doesn’t say that anywhere. And we don’t think that the Ante-Nicene Fathers were infallible. Just that the Apostolic Doctrines and Traditions they passed on were.
Yes, the ones you agree with now…too easy to do. I am calling you guys on it. The only infallible things were the things we ALWAYS TAUGHT. Well…some of them…
 
In seminary, I took a class on Apologetics that covers all the different ways of reaching people. The most popular is the “I am going to show you all my evidence”. Maybe that works for some people, not me. You convert atheists through the power of the Holy Spirit who can work through anything.
Thank you for being an exception to my usual experience on here. I just put you back on my Christmas email card list!
Actually, none of us on here convert anyone. It is only the Holy Spirit.

We cannot lead the horse to water, nor can we make him drink. We cannot even salt the oats.
All we can do is pray that something sinks in enough that he will cooperate with the Holy Spirit.
 
Matthew 16:18
“…And so I say to you, you are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it…”

In order for this famous passage of Matthew to be written Jesus had to speak these words prior to them being written.

Then the author had to write the words into a manuscript.

Lastly, the manuscripts had to be assembled into the Bible.

This is the only possible order of events. If any other order is suggested then the Bible would be rendered meaningless.

If one ponders this a bit more the order of events also shows that Christ’s Church was established on Earth prior to the Bible being assembled.

The whole matter is as simple as that.

The debate on the use of the term ‘Catholic’ as opposed to the term ‘Christian’ is not productive in the end. Catholic meaning ‘universal’ which I have learned to mean that Christ’s Church is open to everyone. Be they atheists, prostitutes, tax collectors, Evangelicals or Fundamentalists. Attendance at mass is open to all. I will take a few words here to invite everyone who reads this to attend a mass. This includes Rightlydivide or anyone reading in anonymity.

Last but not least is that Jesus established his Church upon Peter and then Jesus went willingly along the path to crucifixion. Along that path were many opportunities to flee to safety. Chances to deny his earthly mission were available to Him. He could have said to Pilate, “Yes, this whole thing was a big gag. I take it all back. I do not wish to die.” He chose to die for a higher purpose - the salavation of us all. The apostles preached his gospel and thankfully some of them were scholars and recorded the teachings of Jesus in writing.

God bless
 
I do not think he was head of the 12. I am pointing out that the first church historian recounts something that could in fact be true after a point in time…but that detracts.
I think that James played a crucial role in the Church. As Bishop of Jerusalem, he was in charge of the conversion and acclimation of some of the most hard-hearted of the Judaizers, and I think he (literally) worked miracles. His epistle is a fantastic clarification of the confusion following in the wake of Paul’s epistle to the Romans, and he was lead by the Holy Spirit to lead the early Church out of some nasty heresies. The close of his epistle (say, 5:13-5:20) lays out (basically in bullet point form) a lot of Catholic doctrines [auricular confession, efficacious intercessory prayer, extreme unction, etc.]. I don’t see any indication of James and Peter vying for power, or any hint of usurpation. Acts 15 shows two holy men working together (Peter first, James explicitly building off of him) to settle a dispute. And at the end of it, they claimed that **the Church Council spoke on behalf of the Holy Spirit ** (Acts 15:28, note the use of the term “we,” to show that it was the collective moving together).

As to your second point, that same Church historian records Dionysius of Corinth, in 170 A.D. (about 19 years before you claim Irenaeus “made it up”) acknowledging that Peter and Paul “planted” the Church of Rome:
“You [Pope Soter] have also, by your very admonition, brought together the planting that was made by Peter and Paul at Rome and at Corinth; for both of them alike planted in our Corinth and taught us; and both alike, teaching similarly in Italy, suffered martyrdom at the same time” (Letter to Pope Soter [A.D. 170], in Eusebius, History of the Church 2:25:8).
catholic.com/library/Peter_Roman_Residency.asp
Peter did not found the church at Rome.
From a Catholic site
Yes. No doubt! I am pointing out that certain beliefs were not universally accepted and as such I cannot even say if they had MINORITY acceptance…you see my point. No one appeals to Irenaues about the life span of Jesus but they love his false contention about Peter and Paul. They did not found the church at Rome.
The quote you provided said that Peter died in Rome. If anything, this seems to suggest that he *did *found the church there. But I’ll acknowledge that there were almost certainly Christians who lived there prior to Peter and Paul’s arrival - Acts 2:10 mentions “visitors from Rome” present at Pentecost - although since Peter is the one who converted them in Acts 2:14-41, he technically is still responsible for even whatever ragtag group existed in Rome prior to Peter and Paul arriving. Most likely, some believers existed in Rome prior to their arrivals, but they organized the structure, and turned “group of believers” into “a church,” with the three-tiered structure and whatnot. This conclusion I’m basing off of the works we’ve discussed, and the few clues Acts provides - I’m speculating to some extent. But certainly, I see no evidence *against *the proposition that Peter and Paul founded the church there!
He made it up. Jesus was not forty. Have you read him? He has lots of odd theories about everything. I admite what he did against threats but seriously; he made things up.
I’ve read some of his stuff, and didn’t really find it odd, though our reading perhaps did not overlap? To be clear, he says two distinct things:
(1) Jesus was older than 30 [and he uses Scripture to prove this effectively, in my opinion]
(2) He may have been as old as 40.
He only expresses certainty at his first argument - he doesn’t claim Jesus was 40, just that He could have been as old as 40. So he seems to just be saying, Jesus was between 31-40 years of age.

Interestingly, he was right on the money. Here’s a Lutheran pastor (xrysostom.blogspot.com/2006/02/jesus-age-at-death.html) explaining that “His age at death is difficult. Estimates vary from 33 to 38, with some even going as high as forty years.” The Bible doesn’t tell us His age - why couldn’t He be forty? And in any case, even if He was only 33, as Catholics traditionally believe, Irenaeus wasn’t wrong - 33 is still older than 30, which is the only age he declared too young.
 
I am showing the lack of verifiable information showing the early Christians were Catholic in belief and practice.
Actually, you started off by boldly declaring, “Of course the Apostles and earliest Christians were not Catholics,” and asserting a number of beliefs which they didn’t hold. The rest of us responded with evidence that they did, indeed, hold these beliefs. You presented evidence which showed that certain doctrines of those we defended had people on the other side: that many of the controversial doctrines of today were controversial to some extent in the early days of the Church. Very well.

At this point, I think we should both agree that there is no “Of course they were not Catholics.” Instead, we see a situation where lots of people holding divergent beliefs all vied for the mantle Catholic/Christian. Belloc illustrates this well in his book Europe and the Faith. We actually agree on this, I think - that there were people who were wholly orthodox, some who were total heretics, and a lot (most) who were partially right.

But now consider this: Catholics can trace all of the *doctrines *of faith (which is to say, all the doctrines we claim aren’t just made up by the Church, like not eating meat on Fridays in Lent - these we term disciplines, because they’re just like “House Rules”). We’re an incredibly Biblical, historical Church. I don’t think that most Protestant churches could do the same. Can you show me the Ante-Nicean Church Fathers preaching sola scriptura, or double predestination? I asked a Calvinist (Southern Baptist) pastor for this, and he said “Paul and Jesus,” but then acknowledged that after them, you had to go over 1000 years to find anyone else preaching these doctrines [which to me, suggested that maybe he misunderstood what “Paul and Jesus” had said, and that their audience got it right].
Yes, the ones you agree with now…too easy to do. I am calling you guys on it. The only infallible things were the things we ALWAYS TAUGHT. Well…some of them…
I don’t think you’ve proven your point. If you’re claiming that there is some Tradition we either concocted or discarded, you’ll have to show us what it is.

So, if I may, let me call you on it in reverse. What doctrines were always taught in the Church that the Church no longer believes, and/or what doctrines are now believed which were universally not believed prior to, say, the Council of Nicaea? Because so far, you’ve made a ton of claims about things which the early Church has definitely not believed, and we’ve given you evidence, *from their own lips, *that they believed it.
 
RightlyDivide, I was in the Catacombs of Rome last year. I urge you to buy a plane ticket and get to Rome if you really want evidence of the first Christians who were Catholic in their beliefs. The etchings on the walls are so obvious to people. I guarantee, you will come home with a different attitude.
You’ve been on this forum a long time and you still don’t get it…🤷
 
Thank you to all the Catholics who took up this thread. I certainly applaud your knowledge and typing abilities.👍 Only the Holy Spirit can lead a soul into the Truth so I pray for those who do not yet see the Truth as revealed by Jesus in His Church.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top