What came first: The Real Presence or the propitiatory nature of the Eucharist?

[CampionTheChampion]

Did early Christians first believe in Real Presence or the propitiatory nature of the Eucharist?

 

[Kts1816]

propitiatory

What means this?

 

[JimG]

First they believed what Jesus told them in his Eucharistic discourse in John 6. Then they believed what he told them at the Last Supper: This is my body. This my blood. They didn’t necessarily understand his words at once, first they believed.

 

[guanophore]

Did early Christians first believe in Real Presence or the propitiatory nature of the Eucharist?

Catholics don’t generally use this term because of the contamination of Calvanism in the modern definition.

The context of the eucharist is the Passover, which is a sacrificial celebration that symbolized the deliverance of God’s people from slavery. That ritual was a type of the Eucharistic Celebration with which Christ fulfilled it. Christ became the pure, spotless lamb that was slain to deliver His people from slavery to sin. In the Passover, a real, literal lamb is completely consumed by the faithful. Likewise, in the Eucharist, Jesus gives us his real body and blood that is to be totally consumed (physically). So would say that the sacrificial nature of Eucharist goes back to the first Passover, and that Jesus became the propitiation for our sins after the Last Supper.

 

[CampionTheChampion]

Catholics don’t generally use this term because of the contamination of Calvanism in the modern definition.

The context of the eucharist is the Passover, which is a sacrificial celebration that symbolized the deliverance of God’s people from slavery. That ritual was a type of the Eucharistic Celebration with which Christ fulfilled it. Christ became the pure, spotless lamb that was slain to deliver His people from slavery to sin. In the Passover, a real, literal lamb is completely consumed by the faithful. Likewise, in the Eucharist, Jesus gives us his real body and blood that is to be totally consumed (physically). So would say that the sacrificial nature of Eucharist goes back to the first Passover, and that Jesus became the propitiation for our sins after the Last Supper.

The issue is that Calvinists (or Protestants in general) will distinguish between a propitiatory sacrifice and a sacrifice of praise. It seems clear to me that those like Justin Martyr were speaking of the Eucharist as a sacrifice of praise…

It’s hard to go from a sacrifice of praise to the Real Presence.
It’s easy to go from a propitiatory sacrifice to the Real Presence.

 

[guanophore]

Did early Christians first believe in Real Presence

This is part of the once for all divine deposit of faith, given to the Church.

“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thes. 2:15)

“And what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” (2 Tim. 2:2)

“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.”

-1 Cor. 10:16-17

“For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, ‘This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.’ For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.”

How can one profane something that is not present?

 

[guanophore]

It seems clear to me that those like Justin Martyr were speaking of the Eucharist as a sacrifice of praise…

It’s hard to go from a sacrifice of praise to the Real Presence.

It’s easy to go from a propitiatory sacrifice to the Real Presence.

It is odd to me that an anamnesis can be considered a praise. The Jews at the first Passover were fearful in their homes. They did not come to praise God until after they were delivered. Since the Eucharist is situated in the context of the Passover, it is a solemn memorial, not a fesitval! It was certainly no festival of praise for the pure lamb that was slain.

Which part of Justin Martyr are you referencing?

“This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus.”

“First Apology”, Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

“God has therefore announced in advance that all the sacrifices offered in His name, which Jesus Christ offered, that is, in the Eucharist of the Bread and of the Chalice, which are offered by us Christians in every part of the world, are pleasing to Him.”

“Dialogue with Trypho”, Ch. 117, circa 130-160 A.D.

Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachias, one of the twelve, as follows: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices from your hands; for from the rising of the sun until its setting, my name has been glorified among the gentiles; and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a clean offering: for great is my name among the gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.’ It is of the sacrifices offered to Him in every place by us, the gentiles, that is, of the Bread of the Eucharist and likewise of the cup of the Eucharist, that He speaks at that time; and He says that we glorify His name, while you profane it."

-“Dialogue with Trypho”, [41: 8-10]

 

[Agathon]

Catholics don’t generally use this term because of the contamination of Calvanism in the modern definition.

The Eucharist is the one Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, and that sacrifice is propitiation for the sins of the world.

 

[Kei]

Sacrifice of praise? Whaaaaat? Without eisegesis how do you get that out of any early Christian works on the Eucharist? How does Justin Martyr say that?

 

[CampionTheChampion]

Justin: Accordingly, God, anticipating all the sacrifices which we offer through this name, and which Jesus the Christ enjoined us to offer, i.e., in the Eucharist of the bread and the cup, and which are presented by Christians in all places throughout the world, bears witness that they are well-pleasing to Him. But He utterly rejects those presented by you and by those priests of yours, saying, ‘And I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles (He says); but you profane it.’ Malachi 1:10-12 Yet even now, in your love of contention, you assert that God does not accept the sacrifices of those who dwelt then in Jerusalem, and were called Israelites; but says that He is pleased with the prayers of the individuals of that nation then dispersed, and calls their prayers sacrifices. Now, that prayers and giving of thanks, when offered by worthy men, are the only perfect and well-pleasing sacrifices to God, I also admit. For such alone Christians have undertaken to offer, and in the remembrance effected by their solid and liquid food, whereby the suffering of the Son of God which He endured is brought to mind, whose name the high priests of your nation and your teachers have caused to be profaned and blasphemed over all the earth. But these filthy garments, which have been put by you on all who have become Christians by the name of Jesus, God shows shall be taken away from us, when He shall raise all men from the dead, and appoint some to be incorruptible, immortal, and free from sorrow in the everlasting and imperishable kingdom; but shall send others away to the everlasting punishment of fire. But as to you and your teachers deceiving yourselves when you interpret what the Scripture says as referring to those of your nation then in dispersion, and maintain that their prayers and sacrifices offered in every place are pure and well-pleasing, learn that you are speaking falsely, and trying by all means to cheat yourselves: for, first of all, not even now does your nation extend from the rising to the setting of the sun, but there are nations among which none of your race ever dwelt. For there is not one single race of men, whether barbarians, or Greeks, or whatever they may be called, nomads, or vagrants, or herdsmen living in tents, among whom prayers and giving of thanks are not offered through the name of the crucified Jesus. And then, as the Scriptures show, at the time when Malachi wrote this, your dispersion over all the earth, which now exists, had not taken place.

Dialogue with Trypho 117

Justin clearly thinks prayers and giving of thanks are the only perfect sacrifices which can be offered to God.

 

[Brendan]

Did early Christians first believe in Real Presence or the propitiatory nature of the Eucharist?

“Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heretics in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead” St Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrians AD 110

 

[guanophore]

Justin: Accordingly, God, anticipating all the sacrifices which we offer through this name, and which Jesus the Christ enjoined us to offer, i.e., in the Eucharist of the bread and the cup, and which are presented by Christians in all places throughout the world, bears witness that they are well-pleasing to Him.

The sacrifice of the Passover was pleasing to Him. Sin offerings are pleasing. How does this make it a sacrifice of “praise”?

He is pleased with the prayers of the individuals of that nation then dispersed, and calls their prayers sacrifices. Now, that prayers and giving of thanks, when offered by worthy men, are the only perfect and well-pleasing sacrifices to God, I also admit.

This does not say anything about praise either.

the suffering of the Son of God which He endured is brought to mind,

It is an anamnesis of His suffering. It is a solemn observance of His sacrifice on the cross. It is not a “praise rally”.

Justin clearly thinks prayers and giving of thanks are the only perfect sacrifices which can be offered to God.

Yes, but none of this is “praise”. When Justin uses the word sacrifice/sacrifices, he is referring to the sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

“Did early Christians first believe in Real Presence or the propitiatory nature of the Eucharist?”

The first believers believed in the Real Presence during the first Eucharistic Mass which was celebrated by our dear Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of TWO WITNESSES after Our Lord resurrected from the dead after three days. Here is a recorded account from the first century

Luke 24:25 He said to them, “How foolish you are, and how slow to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Did not the Messiah have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.

28 As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus continued on as if he were going farther. 29 But they urged him strongly, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.

30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”

33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34 and saying, “It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon.” 35 Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

Believe and have faith, Jesus Christ lives AMEN

Peace be with you