What can I say to this person?

[Gregory_Olson]

Hey all,

I just saw this question on a popular Q&A website:

“How can I forget God?
I live with religious people, when I was teenager I fell in love with God. When I felt sad I knew that God is with me, but not anymore. God disappeared from my life, sometimes when I need him I think about him immediately, but then I just remember that God is not with me anymore, my imaginative friend is not with me, no one will understand, help, or protect me as God did (or that’s what I thought). I tried hardly to find him, but I didn’t succeed. I think, ok I am studying now, then I will work, get married, raising child…etc. that’s it? There’s nothing after life? Also I’m very confused about my morals and values, from where should I know what’s right and what’s wrong, but in the past I thought that God draws the right way for human beings and we should follow it, but not anymore. How I can be independent of God? How can I forget my true love? Thank you all.”
(quora.com/How-can-I-forget-God)

As a Catholic, what can I say to this person, and others like him–people who have lost their faith and are clearly suffering?

It certainly doesn’t help that almost all of his answerers have been secular or actively atheistic. Here is the top answer for the question on the website:

"*The questions that you ask are normal and typical for people who question their belief in God.

How can one be moral without God? Where else would I get my morals from?

If you have this question, then also ask yourself the following questions:
Why are the ten least corrupt countries in the Corruptions Perceptions Index also some of the least religious countries in the world?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cor…

Why are the top ten countries in the Social Progress Index also some of the least religious countries in the world?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis…

Why does a non-religious country like New Zealand (where I live) have a murder rate of less than one per 100 000, while a more religious country like the U.S. has a rate that is five times higher?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis…
Obviously I am not arguing that religion causes a higher murder rate. It is more complicated than that. New Zealand has very strict gun controls laws, while the U.S. doesn’t.

The point I that am trying to make with the three examples above is that religion is obviously not necessary for morality.

This perception that God is necessary for morality is caused by the self-serving indoctrination by the church, in order to make sure that people stay part of the flock and help to fill their coffers.

So where do you get your morals from if you don’t have a god? From inside and from rational, secular reasoning. The Golden Rule is a good start. Treat others as you would like others to treat you and do not treat others in ways that you would not like to be treated. This principle has been argued by ancient philosophers and practised by ancient societies for centuries before Christianity.

You might also find it helpful to have a look at this 30 minute video of Matt Dillahunty:
The Superiority of Secular Morality

That’s it? There’s nothing after life?
Yes. Wishing that it is not true is not going to change it. Start making the most of the only life you have. Get out there and start to enjoy it.

How can I be independent of God? How can I forget my true love?
He might have been your true love, but as you said, he was also your imaginary friend. Time to move on. Once you realise that he is imaginary, it is very difficult to put the genie back in the bottle. If you don’t believe in him anymore, don’t insult yourself by trying to pretend that he is still there. Wishing that he was there will not change the fact that he is not there.

I notice that you are living with religious people. Make a conscious effort to mix with like minded people, otherwise you will feel isolated and depressed. Check out meetup.com. They are sure to have some group activities in your area that will interest you. I am involved with Skeptics in the Pub and the Skeptics Friendship Group in my city.*"

A blatant example of new atheism. So my main question is: What can I say, and should I butt in late? Also, should I try to respond to the points of the above answerer, who identified himself as an ‘anti-theist’? The asker was happy with his answer.

This question and response hit home to me that there are people actively trying–and succeeding–in pulling others away from God. I’m sure the above case is not unique. What can I and other Catholics who witness new atheism in-action do?

Pray for them both!

Thanks,
Greg

 

[Joy2day]

Well if you forget your true love, you forget yourself. If you know God as your true love, then you do truly know God - because God is your true love. Tell this person, God has never left him/her, rather the opposite I think. God is there if only we stop and make the time for Him. We are the ones who turn away - via our minds focusing on other things, and using our time investing in other things. God never leaves us. Make time for God, just as you make time for everything else. What do they say about marriage? = make time for your marriage if you want to have a good relationship - same goes for God! - make time for God.

 

[GLam8833]

I’ll answer along the lines of Joy2Day, it is he that moved away from God!!!
I once had a vision, in that vision I saw an orderly world under God, and God
was speaking to me “I AM the Truth, Satan is a Liar, DON’T believe him and
all will be well, take care that you listen to Me” I was meditating on that and
I thot, “What if God was wrong, what if satan turned out to be true?” Immed-
iately, God disappeared and He did not love me and send His son to die for
me and church is nothing but a searching by humans for “something” to
worship, it is purely instinctual!!! I learned this lesson from my vision, having
doubts is okay, but giving in to them and following that train of thot will
BLIND you to what faith “sees” about God and Religion!
Jesus, I trust in your Love for me and will pursue your drop-dead highly desirable
and claimable Love, I reject the world, the flesh and the devil, and embrace Jesus
the truth(the that the world cannot give), the way(that living according to the flesh
cannot save) and the life(that satan cannot fulfill w/ his empty promises), JESUS
is the way to the Eternal Father, of whom to know is life and life to it’s full,
No man comes to the Father except thru Him!!!

 

[hazcompat]

Abandonment to Divine Providence by

Jean-Pierre de Caussade

BOOK I

SECTION VII.—The Hidden Work of Divine Love.

What great truths are hidden even from Christians who imagine themselves most enlightened! How many are there amongst them who understand that every cross, every action, every attraction according to the designs of God, give God to us in a way that nothing can better explain than a comparison with the most august mystery? Nevertheless there is nothing more certain. Does not reason as well as faith reveal to us the real presence of divine love in all creatures, and in all the events of life, as indubitably as the words of Jesus Christ and of the Church reveal the real presence of the sacred flesh of our Savior under the Eucharistic species? Do we not know that by all creatures, and by every event the divine love desires to unite us to Himself, that He has ordained, arranged, or permitted everything about us, everything that happens to us with a view to this union?

This is the ultimate object of all His designs to attain which He makes use of the worst of His creatures as well as of the best, and of the most distressing events as well as of those which are pleasant and agreeable. Our communion with Him is even more meritorious when the means that serve to make it closer are repugnant to nature. If this be true, every moment of our lives may be a kind of communion with the divine love, and this communion of every moment may produce as much fruit, We can only be well instructed by the words which God utters expressly for us. No one becomes learned in the science of God either by the reading of books, or by the inquisitive investigation of history. The science that is acquired by such means is vain and confused, producing much pride.

Peace

 

[St_Francis]

I’ll just comment on one part, which is the question: “How can one be moral without God? Where else would I get my morals from?”

I agree with the other posters on that site.
There are many Atheists who are highly moral, and many Theists who are highly immoral. Believing in God doesn’t necessarily give a person good morals, as we’ve seen over the last few thousand years.
I never understand why many Theists think it does, when we’ve seen an equal amount of moral/immoral people on both sides.


.

You raise several important points:

The formation of morals in individuals is a different question from that of where do morals come from? Here we have an entire category of thought and what is the source of that thought?

Individuals who are raised well in a society suportive of moral behavior do tend to “be moral,” (if you discount the immoral things as apart from the issue of morality). But this does not answer the question of why we seemingly *instinctively *understand the idea of fairness (tho we may have to learn the details ), why we *instinctively *and surprisingly consistently across cultures and time consider certain characteristics good and others bad, etc. esp when expression of good characteristics is so often counter to what we see immediately as our benefit.

Additionally, there is the issue of what is considered moral. If one considers morality to consist of not killing people who have already been born and making sure the government gives enough money to poor people to ensure we no longer feel guilty for having more, then, sure, NZ may well be a model of moral living.

Related to this is the idea of cultural capital. For centuries, Europe practiced Catholic Christianity, whose teachings became entwined with the structure of the society. This structure is passed on by parents to their children, pretty much as their parents passed it on to them, so there is still quite a lot of Catholic “capital” in a society. Take the idea of helping the needy as an example. This is still considered to be important *in Western societies. *It is not a feature of *all *societies, however. How is it that it took a foreign woman to care for the poor and sick in Calcutta? How is it that for generations there had been people this poor and this sick in the city and no one had thought to do anything about it?

The woman was a Catholic, who had been raised with the Catholic idea of helping the poor. The Calcuttans were Hindu, who believed that poor people were paying for wrongs they had committed in a previous life and that helping them would simply extend their time of reparation. The Calcuttans did not have what we in the West consider to be an in-built natural compassion for those in need.

So while it is true that individual atheists may indeed be very moral, atheism in general has to answer the question of where morality in general comes from; in fact, where the idea of goodness comes from.

 

[St_Francis]

I might answer the question (if that is still possible after the questioner has chosen a favorite answer) simply for the sake of people who later read that thread. Sometimes I answer as a sort of mental exercise for myself as well, if the question is one which might come up at some future point. As a result of particpating in threads here, I am now able to succinctly explain various Church teachings which come up in real-life conversations.

Hey all,

I just saw this question on a popular Q&A website:

“How can I forget God?
I live with religious people, when I was teenager I fell in love with God. When I felt sad I knew that God is with me, but not anymore. God disappeared from my life, sometimes when I need him I think about him immediately, but then I just remember that God is not with me anymore, my imaginative friend is not with me, no one will understand, help, or protect me as God did (or that’s what I thought). I tried hardly to find him, but I didn’t succeed. I think, ok I am studying now, then I will work, get married, raising child…etc. that’s it? There’s nothing after life? Also I’m very confused about my morals and values, from where should I know what’s right and what’s wrong, but in the past I thought that God draws the right way for human beings and we should follow it, but not anymore. How I can be independent of God? How can I forget my true love? Thank you all.”
(quora.com/How-can-I-forget-God)

As a Catholic, what can I say to this person, and others like him–people who have lost their faith and are clearly suffering?

It certainly doesn’t help that almost all of his answerers have been secular or actively atheistic. Here is the top answer for the question on the website:

"*The questions that you ask are normal and typical for people who question their belief in God.

How can one be moral without God? Where else would I get my morals from?*

If you have this question, then also ask yourself the following questions:
Why are the ten least corrupt countries in the Corruptions Perceptions Index also some of the least religious countries in the world?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cor…

Why are the top ten countries in the Social Progress Index also some of the least religious countries in the world?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis…

Why does a non-religious country like New Zealand (where I live) have a murder rate of less than one per 100 000, while a more religious country like the U.S. has a rate that is five times higher?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lis…
Obviously I am not arguing that religion causes a higher murder rate. It is more complicated than that. New Zealand has very strict gun controls laws, while the U.S. doesn’t.

The point I that am trying to make with the three examples above is that religion is obviously not necessary for morality.

This perception that God is necessary for morality is caused by the self-serving indoctrination by the church, in order to make sure that people stay part of the flock and help to fill their coffers.

So where do you get your morals from if you don’t have a god? From inside and from rational, secular reasoning. The Golden Rule is a good start. Treat others as you would like others to treat you and do not treat others in ways that you would not like to be treated. This principle has been argued by ancient philosophers and practised by ancient societies for centuries before Christianity.

You might also find it helpful to have a look at this 30 minute video of Matt Dillahunty:
The Superiority of Secular Morality

That’s it? There’s nothing after life?
Yes. Wishing that it is not true is not going to change it. Start making the most of the only life you have. Get out there and start to enjoy it.

How can I be independent of God? How can I forget my true love?
He might have been your true love, but as you said, he was also your imaginary friend. Time to move on. Once you realise that he is imaginary, it is very difficult to put the genie back in the bottle. If you don’t believe in him anymore, don’t insult yourself by trying to pretend that he is still there. Wishing that he was there will not change the fact that he is not there.

I notice that you are living with religious people. Make a conscious effort to mix with like minded people, otherwise you will feel isolated and depressed. Check out meetup.com. They are sure to have some group activities in your area that will interest you. I am involved with Skeptics in the Pub and the Skeptics Friendship Group in my city."

A blatant example of new atheism. So my main question is: What can I say, and should I butt in late? Also, should I try to respond to the points of the above answerer, who identified himself as an ‘anti-theist’? The asker was happy with his answer.

This question and response hit home to me that there are people actively trying–and succeeding–in pulling others away from God. I’m sure the above case is not unique. What can I and other Catholics who witness new atheism in-action do?

Pray for them both!

Thanks,
Greg