What can I say?

[forthright]

We have a large “non-denominational” Christian church in our area, and I know several people who attend there. The pastor has a radio program that I listen to regularly because I think he does a good job of applying scripture to how we should live our daily lives. The sermons do not typically talk much about theology, but I have been able to glean that they teach the necessity of baptism, the need to cooperate with God’s grace by following his commands, and they do not teach OSAS. I have also gleaned that they believe the Catholic Church is seriously flawed, and they often hold up Martin Luther as a great Christian example (in one sermon, comparing him to both the Maccabean martyrs and St. Polycarp ).

This morning, the pastor was talking about how people can reconcile God’s wrath with God’s mercy, when he said the following. (I have tried to remember what he said as accurately as possible, but I probably don’t have it word-for-word.)

Having a hard time reconciling these two aspects of God is nothing new. In the second century, in 144 AD, a man named Marcion thought it was easier to explain this if God were two different people. Now Marcion was the son of a bishop in the church, and he taught that the God of mercy, the God of the New Testament, sent Jesus to correct all the problems and mistakes made by the God of wrath, the God of the Old Testament. The church, rightly so, condemned his teaching outright as heresy.

What can I possibly say to these people I know to help them understand that their pastor habitually uses bits of history and scripture that support the Catholic position, but out of the other side of his mouth he condemns Catholic teaching and practice. I honestly don’t know how someone can listen to him every Sunday for more than a year without seeing the contradiction in his presentations.

 

[frnate]

What can I possibly say to these people I know to help them understand that their pastor habitually uses bits of history and scripture that support the Catholic position, but out of the other side of his mouth he condemns Catholic teaching and practice. I honestly don’t know how someone can listen to him every Sunday for more than a year without seeing the contradiction in his presentations.

At least he got the “Marcion was a heretic” part right

Your friends’ inability to make the logical connections which are so obvious to you stems from the fact that while your faith is steeped in the actual history and traditions of the Church, the history and traditions upon which their faith depends only goes back, AT MOST, 500 years and more likely only to whatever they have decided to depend upon from their own experience. Effectively limiting their traditions and history to only the number of years which they have been alive. (I know whereof I speak for I was one of them and have put many hours into pondering this very question.)

My suggestion to you is to encourage them to read the ECF but limit it to the ones which their pastor uses to make his points.

Perhaps even print out a few things from those ECF for them to read, I mean actually put the papers in their hands.

Peace,
+Nathan

 

[Texas_Roofer]

My thoughts are the people who attend every Sunday share his desire to separate from the Catholic Church, so they hear what they wish. If I were with you I would say nothing concerning the Catholic Church. Remember if they do not believe the Catholic Church is flawed they would be Catholic, which mean good- bye Mercedes, $1,500 suites, large houses, divorce, cohabitation, homosexual marriage, etc.

As for 2 Gods I would simply ask them to reread the Ten Commandments.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

My thoughts are the people who attend every Sunday share his desire to separate from the Catholic Church, so they hear what they wish. If I were with you I would say nothing concerning the Catholic Church. Remember if they do not believe the Catholic Church is flawed they would be Catholic, which mean good- bye Mercedes, $1,500 suites, large houses, divorce, cohabitation, homosexual marriage, etc.

As for 2 Gods I would simply ask them to reread the Ten Commandments.

[rant]I hope you realize that for some reason, MANY Catholics think there is no wrong in amassed wealth. They always use the “as long as you’re not overrly attached to your possessions” line which is ludicrous since anyone without over attachment to material possessions would give the excess to the poor. Personally, I’m sick and tired of Catholics who constantly seek to justify their extravagent spending. The woman with the copper coins seems so easily ignored in the Church. [/rant]

 

[Della]

[rant]I hope you realize that for some reason, MANY Catholics think there is no wrong in amassed wealth. They always use the “as long as you’re not overrly attached to your possessions” line which is ludicrous since anyone without over attachment to material possessions would give the excess to the poor. Personally, I’m sick and tired of Catholics who constantly seek to justify their extravagent spending. The woman with the copper coins seems so easily ignored in the Church. [/rant]

Well, there is a difference between working hard, being creative, and innovative, and so coming into money and being a money grubbing soul who isn’t thinking about the product/service he is offering but only of the money he can make doing it.

Having said that, though, we shouldn’t collect things just to have them, either. My dh and I are far from rich, but we recently went through our closets and dressers and gave away several large yard waste bags full of clothing, shoes and even jewelry. We felt it ought to go to people who truly need them so they can have a better life and/or find employment with decent clothes, shoes and accessories.

Don’t be too hard on people with a lot of things or fancy houses, cars, etc. They probably don’t equate having such things to the needs of the poor. And for all you know, they may give thousands to charity every year. It’s always better for us to look into our own hearts and souls first before condemning others by appearances only.

As to the preacher who is always quoting Catholic saints but still negating the Church, give him time. Many another has come to the Church by beginning to admire her saints. As Chesterton remarked, “He who begins to give the Church a fair chance often ends up being attracted to it” (from memory, so paraphrased).

 

[Texas_Roofer]

[rant]I hope you realize that for some reason, MANY Catholics think there is no wrong in amassed wealth. They always use the “as long as you’re not overrly attached to your possessions” line which is ludicrous since anyone without over attachment to material possessions would give the excess to the poor. Personally, I’m sick and tired of Catholics who constantly seek to justify their extravagent spending. The woman with the copper coins seems so easily ignored in the Church. [/rant]

Thank you

I was not clear I had the “pastor” in mind see many of the “Pastors” of “non-denominational churchs” are only seen in public with the success personia thus the cars, clothes, etc. I did throw in a few attendee issues as" cohabitation, homosexual marriage" I do not worry about money worshippers ( which is not the same as people of wealth), that is between them and God - frankly not my business. Sorry I was not more clear.

 

[Saint_Augustin]

forthright: “I have also gleaned that they believe the Catholic Church is seriously flawed, and they often hold up Martin Luther as a great Christian example (in one sermon, comparing him to both the Maccabean martyrs and St. Polycarp)”

Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, lamented as he said these things after he had seen the damage that individual interpretation of Holy Scripture had done to his movement,

*“This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet.” *

De Wette III, 61.

*“Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul; they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers.” *

Walch XIV, 1360.

 

[Lance]

Let me say this about people who amass wealth. A poor man never gave me a job!

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Well, there is a difference between working hard, being creative, and innovative, and so coming into money and being a money grubbing soul who isn’t thinking about the product/service he is offering but only of the money he can make doing it.

Don’t be too hard on people with a lot of things or fancy houses, cars, etc. They probably don’t equate having such things to the needs of the poor. And for all you know, they may give thousands to charity every year. It’s always better for us to look into our own hearts and souls first before condemning others by appearances only.

Very few people make money through talent. There are a few footballers or novelists in the public eye, and a few people who find a lucky niche. But most people with a good job have got it through hard graft. “Professional standards” are mainly hypocrisy, but not entirely. There is not much to distinguish the accountant from the financial services advisor, despite that fact that the latter usually thinks of himself as a fraud and a liar whilst the former beleives he is a man of great integrity.

We mustn’t make too great demands on people. In a culture which values material success, we can hope to moderate it, but it is unrealistic to expect the average Catholic to repudiate thse values altogether.

 

[CollegeCatholic]

In a very interesting bit of irony, I just learned today that the average American with a high school diploma makes $28,645/year and the average American with a four year degree makes around $51,554/year.

Where do I sit with a four year degree which I attained in three years, triple major, Cum Laude?

$25,700/year.

At least I make more than the average high school dropout!

Any guesses as to what profession I have chosen?

I’ll give you a hint: It starts with “You” and ends with “inistry”

 

[Della]

Very few people make money through talent. There are a few footballers or novelists in the public eye, and a few people who find a lucky niche. But most people with a good job have got it through hard graft. “Professional standards” are mainly hypocrisy, but not entirely. There is not much to distinguish the accountant from the financial services advisor, despite that fact that the latter usually thinks of himself as a fraud and a liar whilst the former beleives he is a man of great integrity.

We mustn’t make too great demands on people. In a culture which values material success, we can hope to moderate it, but it is unrealistic to expect the average Catholic to repudiate thse values altogether.

This certainly is a cynical and sweeping condemnation with the added benefit of being damned with faint praise. There certainly are people who are only out for themselves, but I wouldn’t say that most Catholics are or that they aren’t giving people simply because they have possessions poor people don’t have. How about we leave the judging of motives and hearts to God.

 

[Lance]

Very few people make money through talent. There are a few footballers or novelists in the public eye, and a few people who find a lucky niche. But most people with a good job have got it through hard graft. “Professional standards” are mainly hypocrisy, but not entirely. There is not much to distinguish the accountant from the financial services advisor, despite that fact that the latter usually thinks of himself as a fraud and a liar whilst the former beleives he is a man of great integrity.

We mustn’t make too great demands on people. In a culture which values material success, we can hope to moderate it, but it is unrealistic to expect the average Catholic to repudiate thse values altogether.

Huh? I make a decent amount of money through my talent as a systems programmer. I am not wealthy but my family has never wanted for anything they needed, I live in a nice house that is paid for, have a good truck and a nice car. I plan on retiring soon and will not be a burden to my kids or the government because I saved for that day. I have never paid graft or anything else to get a job, I have been offered jobs that I turned down and left other jobs because I did not like the way the company did business. I know several financial advisors and none of them think of themselves as frauds or liars. My 2 son in laws make good wages using their skills. One is a drill rig operator, the other a banker. Neither of them has ever paid graft. The doctors and nurses at the hospital where my wife works got where they are on skill not graft. I don’t know what world you live in but it sure isn’t my world.

 

[Lance]

In a very interesting bit of irony, I just learned today that the average American with a high school diploma makes $28,645/year and the average American with a four year degree makes around $51,554/year.

Where do I sit with a four year degree which I attained in three years, triple major, Cum Laude?

$25,700/year.

At least I make more than the average high school dropout!

Any guesses as to what profession I have chosen?

I’ll give you a hint: It starts with “You” and ends with “inistry”

I assume you are in youth ministry. Did you not know what it paid before you chose it as a profession? My daughter who is a teacher was well aware of the fact that teachers make less that business people but she felt a calling to teach.