What Can or Should the Catholic Church Do if Gendercide Continues?

[AngryAtheist8]

Give me a stake and an Inquisition to put murderers on it and I’ll have this problem more or less solved inside of three weeks.

The trouble with being the moral and spiritual authority on Earth is that, well, being the moral and spiritual authority (I do love how you added the bold there!), does not actually necessarily come with armies or laws or judges or even a modest police force. The Catholic Church can’t make people not kill their babies, and we can’t make governments do their jobs, either.

We preach the Truth. We provide the sacraments, which are opportunities for grace. We pray for conversion and repentance, and we live in the certain hope that God will do all in His power to turn the hearts of men and women towards Him. We try to help those who suffer as a result of sin, and we even try to help those who suffer because of the sins they’ve committed – like gendercide by abortion.

But if you really, really want to kill your baby girls, despite our warnings about earthly misery and eternal fire and God’s love and hope and forgiveness and how great girls are and how your cultural hatred of girls is the work of the devil (although we’ll always put it more politely than that, I hope)… there’s nothing we the Church can do to stop you.

Unless, again, you’re willing to bring back the alliance between Church law and secular law, in which case I’ll go grab the stake I’ve been saving for the occasion!

On a more serious note:
There was never an alliance between (Catholic) Church and State in India, China, or many of the other countries where this is taking place.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Okay, first, conflating what happens in China with what’s happening in India is just obfuscating the real issues.

In India, as I understand it, they are not trying to "get rid’ of girls as much as have two male children. That’s because in India, it is the responsibility of the second-born son to house and care for his parents in their old age. The second son is their pension. Given the right to choose and birth control, a family that can only afford two or three children, will take no chances and be sure to have those two boys, or face dying in the street. We can protest all we want, but this has been the culture for thousands of years and no one is changing that overnight.

Now, if the belief of the culture is that a fetus is not a human being until born, which is still the law in this country, also, then they aren’t doing anything wrong in their minds. They might value girls very much, but will only have one after the two boys are born.

What’s going on in China is world’s different.

So let’s focus on India. Tell ya what won’t help: widespread atheism and “rational” thinking. They already don’t ascribe human status to a fetus.

All any person can do, and that’s what the Church is, a lot of persons, is live their faith, whatever that is, as well as they can. Jesus’ message is that all are willed to be with Him forever. That means all persons, from conception to death, are highly valued and to be treated as we wish ourselves to be treated. And after death, in fact, as we are called to pray for them.

What can the Church do? Spread the gospel and hope for conversions, because people that believe in their own value and the value of all life find peaceful and not violent solutions.

Here’s my question: what are you doing about it? You think the world gets better by posting your personal outrage on message boards? Convert, find a ministry, or found one, go to India, learn to love these people and respect them and maybe the Holy Spirit will guide you to be part of change.

Otherwise, I say move on with your self-righteousness. We stand for respect for all life and try to act on that. What do you stand for?

Why is virtually no one in this thread answering the questions in the starting post?

Most of the people posting here have simply questioned my motives and my right to ask such questions at all:shrug:

Now I’m not offended by this (I can be incredibly thick skinned sometimes). Though I do wonder why we can’t have a rational discussion about what effect this problem will have on the Church, or what specific steps the Church can take to address it.

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

Though I do wonder why we can’t have a rational discussion about what effect this problem will have on the Church, or what specific steps the Church can take to address it.

You are not coming at this issue from a rational position, to say you want to stop the murder of female babies but then that you are ok with murder of babies in general is not rational.

And there is really nothing left to discuss for a Catholic.

It will have no effect on the Church because Catholics do not engage in gendercide and the Church will continue to oppose abortion and the culture of death in all its forms as it always has.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

You are not coming at this issue from a rational position, to say you want to stop the murder of female babies but then that you are ok with murder of babies in general is not rational.

And there is really nothing left to discuss for a Catholic.

It will have no effect on the Church because Catholics do not engage in gendercide and the Church will continue to oppose abortion and the culture of death in all its forms as it always has.

I have not even said what my position is.
So how would you know whether or not its rational

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

I have not even said what my position is.
So how would you know whether or not its rational

Your position can be deduced from what you have said here, if I have misunderstood your position then by all means correct me.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Your position can be deduced from what you have said here, if I have misunderstood your position then by all means correct me.

All right now I’m curious.

Just what do you think my position is?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Why is virtually no one in this thread answering the questions in the starting post?

I have just started reading this thread. But in reading it from the beginning I found numerous good replies to your question that you have not acknowledged. The main point that you have not addressed is why you think selective abortions of girls is so much worse than abortion in general? And why do you think the Catholic Church should specifically address this gender balance problem, as if to elevate it above the problem of abortion in general? The result of abortion is the taking of a human life. The effects of gendered abortions on society vis-a-vis boys being able to find mates is a problem, but not as big a problem as the fundamental affront to the dignity of the human life that was taken. Go back and read the responses you got on page 1 of this thread and you will see several responses that express these points much better than I can. And then address them instead of exploiting tangents.

 

[chuckfrmvalyfrg]

Why are you ignoring the main topic of the thread?

Which are the questions:
What can the Church do about this problem?
[What should the Church do about this issue?
And
How will this effect the Church?]

ARE YOU KIDDING ? I answered you in my first post ( post #3 in this thread ) , you simply ignored it . There needs to be a re-ordering of how people view sex and marriage . If people devalue sex and marriage they will devalue the fruit of that union. The Catholic Church has been consistently teaching about the fundamental nature of marriage and sex for 2000 years . It’s like football , it’s all about blocking and tackling .Post #3 and you are still whining ?

But I answered your questions , why didn’t you answer mine ?
Why your refusal to state why you seemingly find selective abortion of girls more objectionable than abortion as birth control ?

Why no response when I Challenged you about India & China at least valuing boys when the US & the West devalue BOTH boys and girls ?

Why no response to my claim that those missing 40-50 million children that have been aborted in the US since R v W have had a deleterious effect ( any nation’s greatest resource is it’s people ) .

Is gender specific abortion the only abortion you oppose ? How about abortion as birth control ?

How much of Dr. Bernard Nathanson have you read ? If you haven’t , read his confession .

Why do you think you don’t have to respond to our questions or challenges ?

I find your selective outrage ( if it is indeed selective ) , craven !

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I have just started reading this thread. But in reading it from the beginning I found numerous good replies to your question that you have not acknowledged. The main point that you have not addressed is why you think selective abortions of girls is so much worse than abortion in general? And why do you think the Catholic Church should specifically address this gender balance problem, as if to elevate it above the problem of abortion in general? The result of abortion is the taking of a human life. The effects of gendered abortions on society vis-a-vis boys being able to find mates is a problem, but not as big a problem as the fundamental affront to the dignity of the human life that was taken. Go back and read the responses you got on page 1 of this thread and you will see several responses that express these points much better than I can. And then address them instead of exploiting tangents.

I have read those posts.
Most of them boil down to:
all abortion is evil (and what’s so special about this kind of abortion anyway?)
The Church should keep doing what’s its always done
&
Who are you AngryAtheist, to ask such questions?

This is not intelligent rational debating, I don’t even think this kind of automatic condemnation is that interesting.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

ARE YOU KIDDING ? I answered you in my first post ( post #3 in this thread ) , you simply ignored it . There needs to be a re-ordering of how people view sex and marriage . If people devalue sex and marriage they will devalue the fruit of that union. The Catholic Church has been consistently teaching about the fundamental nature of marriage and sex for 2000 years . It’s like football , it’s all about blocking and tackling .Post #3 and you are still whining ?

But I answered your questions , why didn’t you answer mine ?
Why your refusal to state why you seemingly find selective abortion of girls more objectionable than abortion as birth control ?

Why no response when I Challenged you about India & China at least valuing boys when the US & the West devalue BOTH boys and girls ?

Why no response to my claim that those missing 40-50 million children that have been aborted in the US since R v W have had a deleterious effect ( any nation’s greatest resource is it’s people ) .

Is gender specific abortion the only abortion you oppose ? How about abortion as birth control ?

How much of Dr. Bernard Nathanson have you read ? If you haven’t , read his confession .

Why do you think you don’t have to respond to our questions or challenges ?

I find your selective outrage ( if it is indeed selective ) , craven !

You’re accusing me of cowardice because I won’t answer your questions the way you want?

How cute

 

[st_lucy]

I have read those posts.
Most of them boil down to:
all abortion is evil (and what’s so special about this kind of abortion anyway?)
The Church should keep doing what’s its always done
&
Who are you AngryAtheist, to ask such questions?

This is not intelligent rational debating, I don’t even think this kind of automatic condemnation is that interesting.

Hi Angry Atheist,
I think that you are reading too much into people’s post. What is being said is that Church is doing more than any other group/organization is on this problem. But She does not just stop with the horrific act of abortion on girls in China and India but is also working on the horrific act of abortion world wide.

Again more people need to understand that killing/murdering a child based on gender, econimics, race, circumstance etc. is a great wrong. This is what the Church teaches and any Catholic that truly follows the Church is made aware of this. The Church is constantly telling and trying to educate the UN and other world diplomates of these evils. But She cannot force people to stop this. We are not a vengeful Church. Maybe this is what you are hoping for? But the Church does not teach force but love.

I hope that helps.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

ARE YOU KIDDING ? **I answered you in my first post ( post #3 in this thread ) , you simply ignored it **. There needs to be a re-ordering of how people view sex and marriage . If people devalue sex and marriage they will devalue the fruit of that union. The Catholic Church has been consistently teaching about the fundamental nature of marriage and sex for 2000 years . It’s like football , it’s all about blocking and tackling .Post #3 and you are still whining ?

Here is the post in question:

AngryAtheist8,
You raise a good question and a timely one .The Catholic Church has been speaking out against abortion for a very , very long time . Why are these sex/gender selected abortions any worse than abortions performed as a last means of birth control ? Have you ever read Dr. Bernard Nathanson ( a founder of NARAL and a n Obstetrician ) after he came out aginst abortion ( he admitted to aborting his own child ) ?
I believe there are normally 104-105 male babies born for every 100 female babies . The demographics in China and India will probably have disastrous consequences . In these two countries large percentages of men will have virtually no chance of marrying and raising a family . This will probably lead to higher crime rates, more drug and alcohol abuse , more gambling , increases in prostitution and generally more anti-social behavior on the part of young men ! All these “extra” young men could also inspire unscrupulous government leaders to more quickly engage in military adventures , since they might view their male population as suddenly more expendable .
What is really required is a re-orientation by the world regarding the nature and purpose of sex itself . Until sex is viewed to be both procreative and unitive and reserved for the married state , I don’t have much hope for a change of heart .If sex is "just " about recreation , then it’s gonna be , " legs up city , show no pity " ! Until marriage itself is understood to be about children and family and not merely “coupling” I don’t see how we can be sanguine .
Even in the U.S. there are cases of affluent women ( even married ones ) going through in-vitro fertilization and because these frequently result in multiple pregnancies , the mother will "selectively reduce " her pregnancy . In other words , she finds out she is carrying three fetuses , so she aborts two . This was a famous case of a magazine editor ( or similar affluent career / and she was married ) .
But as I asked you in the 1st paragraph , why are these Gendercide abortions any different than the 40-50 million abortions that have occured in the U.S. since Roe v. Wade ?

While it addresses the overall consequences of Gendercide it doesn’t talk about the effect this gender imbalance will have on the Church in particular (which was one of the starting questions). Nor does it address what the Church can do to deal with this problem (another starting question). It does however, say what the Church should do, which is to basically change everything in societies where the Catholic Church has never had great influence.

Moreover, I did reply to your post by saying this in the 8th post of this thread:
On an individual level these abortions based on ancient prejudices against girls might not be any different than the abortions in the West. But taken as the whole they are warping societies (especially that of China and India) into an overly male parody of themselves, perhaps to the point of extinction (for who will give birth to following generations of Indians or Chinese if there are no virtually no Indian or Chinese girls).

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I have read those posts.
Most of them boil down to:
all abortion is evil (and what’s so special about this kind of abortion anyway?)
…
This is not intelligent rational debating, I don’t even think this kind of automatic condemnation is that interesting.

What is so irrational about answering your question by saying that abortion in general is evil? Just because you disagree with the answer or don’t find it “interesting”, that does not make it irrational. The fact is that if abortion itself were not intrinsically evil, then the selective abortion of baby girls would be just fine. The lack of available female mates would eventually raise the value of having girls and the practice would level off by the laws of supply and demand. The “practical” problem for society would correct itself. Or, if that does not work, then governments could start offering financial incentives to have girls. There would be no need for the Church to take a position, any more than the Church takes a position on the problem of potholes in the springtime. The Church takes positions on moral issues, and the only moral issue in the question you have raised is abortion. So don’t be surprised when the answers you get are all from this perspective.

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

Lets start from the beginning.

AA do you think abortion itself is ok?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Lets start from the beginning.

AA do you think abortion itself is ok?

My own feelings towards abortion are complex.
I admit I am more repulsed by pro-lifers (and their allies) than the actual pro-life cause.

I am a bit disappointed that we apparently can’t discuss the actual issues I brought up in the starting post.

For instance, how will this shortage of women effect the recruitment of nuns?
Will the relative overabundance of men in these parts of the world make it easier to recruit priests?
How will this lack of femininity effect depictions of the Virgin Mary?

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

It won’t have any effect on the Catholic Church because Catholics don’t engage in it. Your other initial questions in post one have already been discussed.

Please share your thoughts on abortion.