J
JRKH
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I’m not sure how this relates to the problem that the OP was talking about…which prompted the comment that this is in reply to…
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James
What constitutes proper Marian devotion?
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James
J
JRKH
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You are welcome.
Come on back when you feel the need for another good argument…
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James
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simple_soul
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*Dear Mathematoons,
I am sorry I am late to chime in on this thread. It caught my eye yesterday but the could/fever that children have been fighting finally caught up with me and I have just been kind of out of it the past few days. Feeling better now and in reading the additional posts here I just wanted to offer my thoughts on some of what has been discussed here so that if you do come back to this thread I hope they may help you understand some of this.
I agree with FCEGM that Jame’s posts have seemingly been the best answers so far.
I believe, and this might help answer some of your questions, is that the proper devotion to our Blessed Mother Mary is something we all have to figure out for ourselves as we grow in our relationship with God. I believe this is what James was trying to help you understand. I also believe this is why you feel that the Church is vague in this regard. But the Church is not vague in regards to her being essential to our salvation. You mentioned earlier in one of your posts that you believed in Geneses and how we were created. Well, it is my understanding that we were created in God’s image and likeness. It is my understanding that this image of God involves both man and woman. The man and woman make the complete image of God. Since the first Man and Woman, Adam and Eve, sinned we no longer had a perfect image of God. In the Incarnation we have the perfect woman, Mary and the perfect man, Jesus and so the perfect image of God is restored. Of course it is through the sacrifice of God Himself, Jesus, that this is all possible. So I see our Blessed Mother Mary and Jesus being what our first parents were supposed to be. In this life, we have to become perfected, we need to learn how to be like Jesus Christ so that He can take us to the Father.
I have heard our Blessed Mother Mary’s womb described as being more spacious than the sky. It got me thinking…if Jesus encompasses everything and she encompasses Him then in her encompassing Him she also is encompassing everything. It is kind of like they, Jesus and Mary go hand in hand. I was talking to my son the other day trying to explain to him why he did not have to fear dying. I told him that going from this life to eternity was like being born. I asked him if he remembered how a baby is in the mother’s tummy for a while and then he/she is born and he said yes and then I explained that this world was like our Blessed Mother Mary’s womb and that when we are ready she will give birth to us into eternity. In her womb we find Jesus. I explained to my son that it was like being twins in her womb. Only it was like the whole world and everyone and everything in this world was in her womb and we were all twins. The coolest thing is that he was actually understanding it and he laughingly told me I was beginning to “freak him out” so I did not try to explain it any further but it has got me thinking about it more and in thinking about it I remembered how when I am outside on a beautiful night with the moon shinning in the starlit shy and just sensed such an all encompassing experience that my senses seemed to be so connected to everything and yet so encompassed by it all and how it was like being held in very comforting arms or very warm and snuggled up inside my mother’s womb. You can really sense her Mothering presence there as well as God’s in the, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Of course my wondering mind immediately jumped to how the Native Americans have always refereed to and described Mother Earth and at first I was wondering and slightly scared that I was now teaching my son some kind of heresy and then I began to wonder about how far from the Truth they were in this understanding trying to put a positive spin on it.
I am not exactly sure about how it all fits together. All I know is she is the New Eve and Jesus is the New Adam and that we all have to go through a rebirth and that the spiritual growth one goes through is very much like going through child-labor like Jesus said it would be and it is my understanding that she was given to me as my Mother and also in understanding Jesus more deeply and understanding how He encompasses everything and then realizing that she became pregnant with Him so she then encompassed Him who encompasses everything that I started to believe it all makes sense and that I was not teaching my son some kind of heresy. I may have to tweak it here and there but it did help understand better what people might mean when they say one can not be saved unless they go through Mary or how a devotion to Mary will help you relationship with Jesus. I hope and pray it does help you understand better if you have taken the time to read this long winded post.
As to why is Mary considered more Holy or more important than other Holy souls?
I believe that it is because she is the only one who was created to physically bring Jesus Christ into the world. Just like the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross is perpetual I believe Our Blessed Mother Mary’s role of birthing Jesus Christ into the world is also perpetual. It is like she is perpetually birthing Him into us and us into Him.
It is like she is our perpetual Mother just like Jesus is our Perpetual Savior.
I so hope and pray some of what I have said makes sense and that it was helpful…
…*
I am sorry I am late to chime in on this thread. It caught my eye yesterday but the could/fever that children have been fighting finally caught up with me and I have just been kind of out of it the past few days. Feeling better now and in reading the additional posts here I just wanted to offer my thoughts on some of what has been discussed here so that if you do come back to this thread I hope they may help you understand some of this.
I agree with FCEGM that Jame’s posts have seemingly been the best answers so far.
I believe, and this might help answer some of your questions, is that the proper devotion to our Blessed Mother Mary is something we all have to figure out for ourselves as we grow in our relationship with God. I believe this is what James was trying to help you understand. I also believe this is why you feel that the Church is vague in this regard. But the Church is not vague in regards to her being essential to our salvation. You mentioned earlier in one of your posts that you believed in Geneses and how we were created. Well, it is my understanding that we were created in God’s image and likeness. It is my understanding that this image of God involves both man and woman. The man and woman make the complete image of God. Since the first Man and Woman, Adam and Eve, sinned we no longer had a perfect image of God. In the Incarnation we have the perfect woman, Mary and the perfect man, Jesus and so the perfect image of God is restored. Of course it is through the sacrifice of God Himself, Jesus, that this is all possible. So I see our Blessed Mother Mary and Jesus being what our first parents were supposed to be. In this life, we have to become perfected, we need to learn how to be like Jesus Christ so that He can take us to the Father.
I have heard our Blessed Mother Mary’s womb described as being more spacious than the sky. It got me thinking…if Jesus encompasses everything and she encompasses Him then in her encompassing Him she also is encompassing everything. It is kind of like they, Jesus and Mary go hand in hand. I was talking to my son the other day trying to explain to him why he did not have to fear dying. I told him that going from this life to eternity was like being born. I asked him if he remembered how a baby is in the mother’s tummy for a while and then he/she is born and he said yes and then I explained that this world was like our Blessed Mother Mary’s womb and that when we are ready she will give birth to us into eternity. In her womb we find Jesus. I explained to my son that it was like being twins in her womb. Only it was like the whole world and everyone and everything in this world was in her womb and we were all twins. The coolest thing is that he was actually understanding it and he laughingly told me I was beginning to “freak him out” so I did not try to explain it any further but it has got me thinking about it more and in thinking about it I remembered how when I am outside on a beautiful night with the moon shinning in the starlit shy and just sensed such an all encompassing experience that my senses seemed to be so connected to everything and yet so encompassed by it all and how it was like being held in very comforting arms or very warm and snuggled up inside my mother’s womb. You can really sense her Mothering presence there as well as God’s in the, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Of course my wondering mind immediately jumped to how the Native Americans have always refereed to and described Mother Earth and at first I was wondering and slightly scared that I was now teaching my son some kind of heresy and then I began to wonder about how far from the Truth they were in this understanding trying to put a positive spin on it.
I am not exactly sure about how it all fits together. All I know is she is the New Eve and Jesus is the New Adam and that we all have to go through a rebirth and that the spiritual growth one goes through is very much like going through child-labor like Jesus said it would be and it is my understanding that she was given to me as my Mother and also in understanding Jesus more deeply and understanding how He encompasses everything and then realizing that she became pregnant with Him so she then encompassed Him who encompasses everything that I started to believe it all makes sense and that I was not teaching my son some kind of heresy. I may have to tweak it here and there but it did help understand better what people might mean when they say one can not be saved unless they go through Mary or how a devotion to Mary will help you relationship with Jesus. I hope and pray it does help you understand better if you have taken the time to read this long winded post.
As to why is Mary considered more Holy or more important than other Holy souls?
I believe that it is because she is the only one who was created to physically bring Jesus Christ into the world. Just like the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross is perpetual I believe Our Blessed Mother Mary’s role of birthing Jesus Christ into the world is also perpetual. It is like she is perpetually birthing Him into us and us into Him.
It is like she is our perpetual Mother just like Jesus is our Perpetual Savior.
I so hope and pray some of what I have said makes sense and that it was helpful…
…*
L
LilyM
Guest
Well, your very strong implication was that we need not worry about matters which are not spelled out in some document or other. Which is simply not the case.
J
JRKH
Guest
I have always found it dangerous to reply to “implications”. Better to ask for clarification.
Lets look at the two pertinent sections of the posts
If people are telling him this…then these people need to have official Church teaching to back them up. Therefore I suggested:
Surely if they are to be damned for something there would be SOMETHING in the Church’s documentation on it.
Certainly we are to Love each other…Which is what you posted…the new command…and part of that Loving is surely to help others to not get off track.
If there is a disagreement among believers over what will or will not get a person damned…then most certainly it is legitimate to ask them to produce documented teaching. After all, Jesus also told us to “Tell it to the Church” and to “Listen to the Church”, which is what the Catechism and other documents allow us to do.
So this too is Love…
Peace
James
Mark121359
Well-known member
I would think that this remark is offensive to Catholics who have a healthy love for Our Lady. I have not met anyone on here or for that matter in all of my 53 years on this earth who considers Mary to be above her Son. I mean, I love her to pieces… but Jesus is Lord, period! But, through my devotion to Mary, she has brought me into a deeper love for Jesus that has had a profound effect on me. I find myself with this burning desire to spend some time and talk to Him in the Blessed Sacrament like never before! She always points to her Son! And I do mean always! But, I hardly believe that my love for her could be cosidered “worship” as you say though. On the other hand, I’m not afraid to say to her to borrow from JPll… Oh Maria, Totus Tuus! I love you Mama Mary!..either! By the way, the " I love you Mama Mary" line is mine, not JPll.
Peace
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