What did I do?

[Lasting_faith]

I do not do hypotheticals. We have seen so many. They are endless and meaningless.

So you have no answer? I think you can do better. I mean, hypothetical or not that may be a scenario we may face one day, and most likely have. The way I see it grace is the key word. We don’t have a long “check-list” who tell us in detail what is sin or not, we know a bit, but is not fail-proof nor in detail. Let’s look at “Thou shall kill”. Pretty simple and straight forward, alas, there is situations when you can kill with no doubt. Surely there must be situations where you can, I don’t like the word lie, so I say where you can deviate from official Catholic doctrine. A doctor may say “you will be fine” just to comfort even though he know very well that the patient will not be fine at all. That is a lie, but said in a good intention, why scare a patient who most likely be dead in a few minutes. Or what about all the brave nuns and monks who did hide people during WW II? They did lie, and lying is against official doctrine not only for us Catholics but for all Christian faiths and most of all non-Christian faiths. The world is not black and white, and I think God knows that. It is impossible to list everything you can do and what you can’t, so God gave us free will also for those situations. Yes, it is wrong to say something that is against what The RCC teach, and that’s how it must be. What I mean is that even if it do work on paper it does not work in the “real” world. Remember when, I guess you have done it too, start a “secret club” as a kid, or been a member. The most important is the rules. Yes, there must be rules, but with rules there must be latitude to move around. You speed and get a ticket, or do you? With a valid reason the police will let you go with a warning. And what did the officer do? He did use his sense and if the reason is good, he let you go. If a “earthly” authority have the right to do it then God have the right to kind of let us go with a warning. Problem though, there is nothing about that in The CCC, or are there? The RCC teach us what is right, as it should, but you have somehow managed to forget compassion and understanding that not all are as good as you, and not all care about faith, yet they all are created by the same God, the one and only. I try to figure out how I should be able to understand your “world” and how I can help you. All I did as a sin was to say “that’s OK” (in Finnish". Yes it was a sin, but the God I love have understanding, and we do believe in the same God. I thought I was lonely and isolated, but you, poor you. You see, if you look up from all books, that must give you much, there is a world with non-Catholic people, atheist, Muslims, you name it, and to navigate in a world like that work only in one way, give respect, gain respect. Realize that you can be wrong and the world will not end with that. Have compassion and understanding, and you will get compassion and understanding. Sometimes we must use common sense. The RCC teach us in fact only the basic, and for a reason, there are situations where the Catholic teaching does not work. It is nice to be right all the time, wish I would be at least once in a while, but being wrong is not a sin, and believe me, it feels good to be wrong sometimes, it make you humble.

 

[thistle]

So you have no answer? I think you can do better. I mean, hypothetical or not that may be a scenario we may face one day, and most likely have. The way I see it grace is the key word. We don’t have a long “check-list” who tell us in detail what is sin or not, we know a bit, but is not fail-proof nor in detail. Let’s look at “Thou shall kill”. Pretty simple and straight forward, alas, there is situations when you can kill with no doubt. Surely there must be situations where you can, I don’t like the word lie, so I say where you can deviate from official Catholic doctrine. A doctor may say “you will be fine” just to comfort even though he know very well that the patient will not be fine at all. That is a lie, but said in a good intention, why scare a patient who most likely be dead in a few minutes. Or what about all the brave nuns and monks who did hide people during WW II? They did lie, and lying is against official doctrine not only for us Catholics but for all Christian faiths and most of all non-Christian faiths. The world is not black and white, and I think God knows that. It is impossible to list everything you can do and what you can’t, so God gave us free will also for those situations. Yes, it is wrong to say something that is against what The RCC teach, and that’s how it must be. What I mean is that even if it do work on paper it does not work in the “real” world. Remember when, I guess you have done it too, start a “secret club” as a kid, or been a member. The most important is the rules. Yes, there must be rules, but with rules there must be latitude to move around. You speed and get a ticket, or do you? With a valid reason the police will let you go with a warning. And what did the officer do? He did use his sense and if the reason is good, he let you go. If a “earthly” authority have the right to do it then God have the right to kind of let us go with a warning. Problem though, there is nothing about that in The CCC, or are there? The RCC teach us what is right, as it should, but you have somehow managed to forget compassion and understanding that not all are as good as you, and not all care about faith, yet they all are created by the same God, the one and only. I try to figure out how I should be able to understand your “world” and how I can help you. All I did as a sin was to say “that’s OK” (in Finnish". Yes it was a sin, but the God I love have understanding, and we do believe in the same God. I thought I was lonely and isolated, but you, poor you. You see, if you look up from all books, that must give you much, there is a world with non-Catholic people, atheist, Muslims, you name it, and to navigate in a world like that work only in one way, give respect, gain respect. Realize that you can be wrong and the world will not end with that. Have compassion and understanding, and you will get compassion and understanding. Sometimes we must use common sense. The RCC teach us in fact only the basic, and for a reason, there are situations where the Catholic teaching does not work. It is nice to be right all the time, wish I would be at least once in a while, but being wrong is not a sin, and believe me, it feels good to be wrong sometimes, it make you humble.

You don’t get it. The problem with hypotheticals is just that - they are hypothetical. We see them all the these forums. They are disingenuous and are simply trying to trip people up.
For example, 3 men adrift in a boat with not enough food to survive long. Is it morally right for 2 of them to conspire to kill the other and eat him to survive. Of course the answer is no but under your thought process they should do it anyway and simply go to Confession afterwards because the main thing is that these 2 lived!!

 

[jmcrae]

So I ask you this: a person is standing on the edge of a cliff ready to jump, (this is not the circumstances in the event where I did not follow the teachings) and to be able to save that person is to say something, as a advice, that are against official doctrine of The RCC. What would you do?

Do whatever is necessary to save their soul - which would not include teaching them to commit sin.

 

[Lasting_faith]

Do whatever is necessary to save their soul - which would not include teaching them to commit sin.

I did not TEACH anything. All I did was to simply say “That’s OK”, what she wanted to do was against official Catholic doctrine but not against official Christian teaching, and we all know that The RCC have a different, but not wrong, teaching then for example the Lutheran Church. These two things must be kept apart because they are not equal, and I think all of you understand that. Yes, I did say it is OK to sin, but with the assumption and knowledge that she is Lutheran but as far as I know do not practice the Lutheran faith. What is sin for me is not for a Lutheran a sin. I don’t know how to make you understand that there are situations when it is better to sin yourself in order to help someone. I commit the sin, and that is my problem. I will never teach anyone, and have never, anything that is wrong, but outside the “ivory tower” there is a real world with real problems, and there are occasions when it is impossible to help someone who don’t share your faith without a sin. It is always wrong to sin, but sometimes that is all you can do.

 

[thistle]

I did not TEACH anything. All I did was to simply say “That’s OK”, what she wanted to do was against official Catholic doctrine but not against official Christian teaching, and we all know that The RCC have a different, but not wrong, teaching then for example the Lutheran Church. These two things must be kept apart because they are not equal, and I think all of you understand that. Yes, I did say it is OK to sin, but with the assumption and knowledge that she is Lutheran but as far as I know do not practice the Lutheran faith. What is sin for me is not for a Lutheran a sin. I don’t know how to make you understand that there are situations when it is better to sin yourself in order to help someone. I commit the sin, and that is my problem. I will never teach anyone, and have never, anything that is wrong, but outside the “ivory tower” there is a real world with real problems, and there are occasions when it is impossible to help someone who don’t share your faith without a sin. It is always wrong to sin, but sometimes that is all you can do.

If its against Catholic teaching it IS against Christian teaching because the Catholic Church was the ONLY Church established by Christ and the ONLY one given authority in matters of faith and morals. That means all Catholic Church teachings have the authority of God behind them.
Therefore if any other Christian community teaches something that contradicts Catholic Church teaching then that other Christian Community is wrong. The Catholic Church cannot be in error in matter of faith and morals.

 

[Lasting_faith]

If its against Catholic teaching it IS against Christian teaching because the Catholic Church was the ONLY Church established by Christ and the ONLY one given authority in matters of faith and morals. That means all Catholic Church teachings have the authority of God behind them.
Therefore if any other Christian community teaches something that contradicts Catholic Church teaching then that other Christian Community is wrong. The Catholic Church cannot be in error in matter of faith and morals.

Yes, I believe that too, but there is a “real” world outside The Catholic Church. Most of all non-Catholic Churches (Lutheran, Orthodox and many more) keep a close connection with The Holy See. In Finland The Catholic Church even “loan” Lutheran and Orthodox Churches for some event’s which include the administering Sacraments, and The RCC recognize most of the Sacraments of The Lutheran, Orthodox, Anglican Churches, and many more I guess, as valid. Is that also wrong?

I have no problems to live with the teachings of The RCC, but I must also understand that I am also a human being with free will to think by myself. Ones life does not need to be complicated because of ones faith. I don’t fast, I don’t each fish on Fridays, and I have not a clue why I should, I must ask “my” priest next time I see him. I pray only three times each day, including The Rosary, for reasons you and all others know I don’t read any books except The Bible, so I guess I am far from a “good” Catholic. But I do my best, what more can I? I have not made my faith the biggest thing in my life because I have that faith anyway, and my faith is a very “childlike”. I follow the Ten Commandments and love my neighbour as I love myself and I love God above all. I have no reason to “feed” my faith constantly, like I would all the time need more and more evidence that God is real. I did know God before I knew who He is, faith has never been a problem for me, if I may use that world. My faith is Catholic, it is simple and it is a light burden to carry. I sin, I am wrong once in a while, I know I am not perfect, and that is OK, I do need God, as we all do, but that does mean that I try to do His will. But sometimes we need to use our own sense and maybe sin in order to do good. (It is right to do good on a Sabbath.)

I regret I did post this question (What did I do?) because it made me understand that faith is not only a good thing, it can be bad too. But I love to help people if they need it. I never “teach” what is wrong, but I understand that there are situations, no matter what you think, where God and Church is the last thing to talk about. I regret also that I did sin, but that sin is forgiven, but I will never regret I did help someone in need of comfort. I repent my sin, but I don’t repent I hopefully was able to help someone. To me God is not a “prison”, He is a shield. I need Him every day, to follow, to do His will and to love Him because He love me, I hope. You are a lot smarter then I am, and still you don’t see it, and you know very well what I mean. I sure hope you do one day, it will make your life easier, and you will be a much better Catholic that way, and even if I think we must first be good Christians and then good Catholics, the whole core of Christian faith is not how to believe, how to live or how to do what is right. Everything that is right is in the teachings of The RCC, but if we need to “boost” it every day and all the time make sure nothing will interfere it become a prison, one that is very hard to escape from. May the doctrine of The RCC be our life, but not the other way around, when the life we have become the doctrine we need to stop and think. Christ did say that we should take His burden, that is easy and light to carry, and it is, it sure is, the feeling when you each day pick it up and understand how easy and simple it is to be a Christian, I hope you all will someday feel that, I sure hope you will. All I can say about all this is that I am so happy I could help her that evening, and even if I did sin, I think I did what was right, it is always right to do good, to be a Christian is all about forgiving, helping and give aid when aid is needed, no matter who will receive the help. And about this thread and me, I am done with this one.

 

[jmcrae]

So, back to my example, if someone are standing on the edge of a cliff and are ready to jump. The only thing that stands between jump or not is you, and a sentence that is against official teaching, let us say that the person are trying to get a child with his/her spouse and as non-Catholics they have treatment that may help them to get that child. (This is not the issue either that was what I did say.) The person ask you: “if I can’t continue with the treatment we may have a chance, should I continue, if not, my life is worth nothing, my spouse will leave me and I will jump!” What would you say? And keep in mind that you are talking to a person that is not Catholic and not very religious in any way and does not suffer from any mental problems, only despair, and the only way they may have a child is by IV-fertilization, and you know this thing. What would you say?

I would say, “Is there anything you would want to do, before you kill yourself? I accept that you have made the choice to kill yourself over this, because it is so important to you that you must die if you can’t have a child, and I can’t recommend IVF to you, because it would require you to kill so many children so as to give birth to one or maybe two of them, and how would you choose which children to kill, and which child to keep? - and being as none of the children would be coming from you or your husband, but from strangers, perhaps he would divorce you anyway, so that he could have a child from his own body with a different woman - but before you make your final leap off the cliff, is there anything you would have wanted to do before you die? Someone you would want to meet, or a play you want to see, or a book you want to read?”

 

[Brigid34]

No, I did not tell who she is, actually, I don’t know her name but she live nearby. And I did not tell her to get an abort or lie. Her problem is not a problem as a Lutheran but I am Catholic, but in the circumstances, considering her state of mind, well, I am lay-person, but it was obvious for all that she was not thinking straight at that moment, and I did feel that I had to say something (this I did explain in my confession) to calm her down and give a bit of hope, and **my advice did not in anyway put her in any kind of jeopardy but was [in my mind] and still is, the right thing to do. **

People sometimes ask for my advice, why I don’t know, but I take it very serious every time, keeping in mind the person, his/hers mental state, is he/she maybe drunk or use any drugs, legal or illegal substances, what ever may affect the state of the person at that moment. I try to not give direct advises what to do or not. Most of the time they do not have anything to do with religion, and I try to stay away from religious issues because people in Finland, sad to say, seem to have some problems with some teachings the RCC teach, mostly it is only lack of knowledge and therefor they are not able to see the whole picture. This however was a matter where the Catholic doctrine and the Lutheran have a different view on the issue. Sometimes though, this I have learn by myself, it is not always a proper time to involve religion in the problem, and this was one of those times, I did tell her that I will pray for her, and I did send a prayer request to the Carmelite nuns in the convent we have here, but I did not give any specific details, only a reason why I wish they would pray for her. I still feel I did wrong when I did confess it, but I needed to be in peace with my life. I did not give any specific information to “my” priest neither, a very vague view and he was smart enough to not ask because I think he did understand I was not so happy about the whole thing. I still feel that my advice was right at that moment, I do regret I gave it, but there are times in your life when it is more important to say what your heart tell to speak then what you know is right. Right can be wrong, and vice versa, as I have said before, it is better to be a Christian first and then a good Catholic. She had nobody to talk with, and I happen to be available, why I don’t know, but I was.

The Catechism 1759 states that “the end does not justify the means”. Now this is about those things which touch upon faith and morals, not other things which may be more gray.

The advice you gave her needed to stay within that boundary unless it was something which didn’t touch on faith and morals.

Those things are black and white which do have to do with faith and morals.