What did Paul Mean?

[Sirach14]

Paul wrote in Romans 2:13 " For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified."
In Romans 3:28 Paul says " For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law."
Which is it, is Paul confused?

 

[Buckeyejoe]

The word justification/sanctification causes alot of problems.

True Justification occurs at Baptism, through an act of faith (No works of Charity) we receive this Justification which includes removal of sins, an interior renewal, sanctifying grace, Heaven bound!

After Baptism the term Justification takes on a meaning similar to sanctification. Which is growing in holiness, becoming more like Christ. And this Justification/sanctification is a process of faith and acts of charity which both become necessary for our salvation.

Love God, Love people, obey the commandments…If you wish to enter into life.

Thanks

 

[dredgtone]

I see the whole “removal of sins” at baptism to be nothing but a symbolic measure would you agree? I think the notion that a baby withholds original sin after being fresh out of the oven is absurd, especially considering the fact that most do not take the story of Adam and Eve literally.

 

[Emmaus]

Sirach14,

You may find this link helpful.

bcpl.net/~spohl/Justification.htm

Consider this too.

If “faith without works is dead” faith (James 2:26), then works of faith as opposed to Works of the Law (i.e. circumcision) are living faith in action, or what St. Pauls calls “faith working in love”(Gal 5:6) or “the obdedience of faith” (Rom 1:5, 16:26)

The New Testament speaks of Old Testament saints who were saved by obedient faith in God. Abraham is the prime example spoken of in Romans 4 and James 2:21-26. So we know the Old Testament faithful were saved by faith in the promised Messiah.

To say that doing good works means nothing contradicts the scripture. If you do good works in Christ you are doing His work. Take a look at theses passages and put your mind at rest.
Matt 7:21
Matt 19:16-17
Matt 25:34-46
John 14:21
Romans 2:28
Galatians 5:4-6
Ephesians 2:8-10
Philemon 2:12-13
James 2:14-24

That being said: “faith without works is dead” James 2:20,26 is crystal clear and intentionally blunt. Faith in Christ cannot be separated from works in Christ or you don’t really have any Faith to show, only a lifeless corpse of a mental concept without any spiritual substance and of no earthly good either. They are two side of the same coin. We know James is speaking about the same Faith as Paul because they both use Abraham’s faith as the illustrating example. Paul never says we are saved by faith alone and James never says we are saved by works alone but he does says: “we are not saved by faith alone” James 2:24. If you look at James and Paul in full context it is clear that faith in Christ and works in Christ are inseparable if we are talking about a living saving faith. It is no accident that Paul opens and closes Romans with the phrase “the obedience of faith” Romans 1:5 and 16:26, which fits perfectly with Galatians 5:5 and James. It is not a matter of works adding to faith. Works in Christ are the physical embodiment and manifestation of faith in Christ, without which faith is dead. For human beings as created and as God intended us to be, the body and the spirit are an integrated unit. That is why our redemption is not complete until our bodies are resurrected at the Second Coming. It goes without saying that works in Christ are not the same thing as “works of the law” such as circumcision, which Paul is often speaking about in Romans. The “obedience of faith” is as different from the “works of the law” as are the commandments written on stone from the commandments written on our hearts.

Paul’s primary point about works was that what we do cannot obligate God to save us. We cannot make God do anything. God saves us because God loves us and because He wants to save us, not because we make Him obliged to save us.Our good works flow from our faith in God’s love for us, God’s love for us does not flow from our works.

 

[ralphinal]

dredgtone:

I see the whole “removal of sins” at baptism to be nothing but a symbolic measure would you agree? I think the notion that a baby withholds original sin after being fresh out of the oven is absurd, especially considering the fact that most do not take the story of Adam and Eve literally.

Ok, on this one you are way off. It is not symbolic, but a real change of internal state due to the Holy Spirit. Even if Adam and Eve is not literally true, there is a change in the state of men due to the fall of creation. You do not beleive in this, I know, but since we do, we can define what happens at baptism.

 

[dredgtone]

ralphinal:

Ok, on this one you are way off. It is not symbolic, but a real change of internal state due to the Holy Spirit. Even if Adam and Eve is not literally true, there is a change in the state of men due to the fall of creation. You do not beleive in this, I know, but since we do, we can define what happens at baptism.

I understand what you are saying but when was the fall of creation? And i have trouble understanding the concept of original sin in terms of exactly how “sinful” it is, hehe.

 

[Pax]

dredgtone:

I understand what you are saying but when was the fall of creation? And i have trouble understanding the concept of original sin in terms of exactly how “sinful” it is, hehe.

If you are serious about making an inquiry about “the fall” and “original sin”, then I would suggest that you read Frank Sheed’s book, Theology and Sanity. This is an outstanding book that will answer your questions in depth. I cannot recommend it enough.

 

[Pax]

Sirach14:

Paul wrote in Romans 2:13 " For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified."
In Romans 3:28 Paul says " For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law."
Which is it, is Paul confused?

Paul is not confused, but the book of Romans can be very confusing, and people frequently have difficulty understanding it. Paul does give us the answer or at least some clarification by way of Romans 9:31-32 where he says, “…Israel who pursued the righteousness which is based on law did not succeed in fulfilling that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it through faith, but as if it were based on works.”

Note that we live by faith and that the fulfillment of God’s commands are to be based on faith. We are to trust in God’s grace through the merits of Jesus Christ crucified. This is further substantiated by:

Rom 3:31 “Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.”
Rom 6:14-15 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
1 Cor 7:19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.
Gal 6:15-16 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God.

The apostle Paul speaks of the “obedience of faith” at the beginning, middle, and at the end of Romans. See Rom 1:4-5, 6:16, and 15:18. We can be obedient by God’s grace. We accomplish nothing on our own and we are never to look at our works as a wage that earns us a way into heaven. Instead, we are adopted sons and daughters and we “live” by faith. We are loving and obedient because it is God at work within us and He “…is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine.” (Eph 3:20)

 

[Matt16_18]

Paul wrote in Romans 2:13 " For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified."

Paul means the same thing as James:

But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
James 1:22

In Romans 3:28 Paul says " For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law."

Key word here is works. The works of the law that Paul is talking about in Romans chapter 3 are things like the laws governing circumcision, and following the kosher dietary laws, i.e. the disciplinary laws, not the moral laws. Abraham never had to obey the kosher dietary laws, and Abraham was justified by faith, before he was circumcised. These verses must be read in their context, and it must be understood that Paul is using the word “law” to mean different things at different times. In his epistles, Paul uses “law” to mean the natural law, the irrevocable moral law of the Torah, and revocable disciplinary laws such as circumcision that were added for transgressions, etc.

The scriptures aren’t full of contradictions, but the private interpretations of sciptures are.